Opinions on Litespeed Watia and Ti vs carbon

Jumbo wrote:... One difference--different Ti alloy--but I'm not sure how much that matters ...

More often than not my bike purchases are not so much on a whim and I delay gratification to try lots of stuff. At a high level I think most firms make great stuff these days so choices are difficult.

An acquaintance has the Litespeed but I was not able to ride it the way I could test others.

I rode enough ti, composite and steel frames to know core characteristics and why I wanted titanium or steel but it was also part getting the high stack and modest reach most all composite frames did not have. Having worked in metals and manufacturing earlier in life I held a strong bias for experienced titanium builders.

More than I want to admit, I think there is something to Moots reputation or hype and especially knowing I have really stiff wheels. There's just nothing noodle or soft feeling with the large diameter main triangle tubes but the bike is just crazy comfortable. In different bike types, models and trials I could sense how titanium is a great choice for someone who like steel but riding the Routt 45 is just wow. Nothing soft in a bad way, stomp on it like it's composite but hit rough stuff and you have a ride the others lack.

NoCoGreg wrote:Once upon a time Bontrager or Ritchey wrote a great article describing the differences in feel of frames built with steel, titanium, aluminum and carbon.  Assuming the frames are all the same stiffness what one will feel is the high frequency damping of the various materials. Carbon has the greatest absorption of high frequency vibration which led people to characterize them as "feeling dead".  Aluminum absorbs the least and ti/steel were very similar. So if you like the feel of steel you’ll be very happy on Ti.

NoCoGreg wrote:Once upon a time
So if you’re looking for the lightest bike or the most vibration absorption I’d advise CF over Ti. But if you want a frame which will last for decades and still look like new then I’d point you to Ti. Bottom line a well engineered bike, be it Ti or CF, is going to ride great.

My Lynskey GR270 is a lot smoother than my Giant Revolt.  My Revolt is largely stiff enough, but I'm around 190ish and when I'm out of the saddle I hear the rotors hit the pads.  Even with the Lynskey being smoother, that doesn't happen on that bike. 

It's all subjective though, component changes can change things, etc etc.  Apples to Apples, this particular Ti frame is smoother than this particular carbon frame.  Other models may result in other results.  These are two of the cheaper end of nice material frames, so maybe a Litespeed is nicer.

Volsung wrote:

My Lynskey GR270 is a lot smoother than my Giant Revolt.  My Revolt is largely stiff enough, but I'm around 190ish and when I'm out of the saddle I hear the rotors hit the pads.  Even with the Lynskey being smoother, that doesn't happen on that bike. 

 

It's all subjective though, component changes can change things, etc etc.  Apples to Apples, this particular Ti frame is smoother than this particular carbon frame.  Other models may result in other results.  These are two of the cheaper end of nice material frames, so maybe a Litespeed is nicer.

SWGraveler wrote:Thanks for the replies. I'm surprised that I have not heard from a Watia owner but maybe there aren't many out there yet as it is a fairly new frameset. 
I recognize that all of what I'm asking about is highly subjective as there are infinite variables at play. That combined with the fact that you rarely hear someone say they don't really like the expensive bike they just bought. I think one under appreciated factor is to read and grasp what a manufacturer says about a frame as with carbon they have so much control over the material that it probably meets their design goals. If it was designed to be light and stiff, it probably will be so don't expect much comfort..
Part of what I'm trying to sort is just how relevant the frame is on a gravel bike; with bigger/softer tires how much do you really feel the frame? That said, the surface is much more harsh so perhaps the net/net is that the frame is just as relevant?

I've purposely tried same tires on different bikes, and the same Bontrager wheels and tires on my new bike (Moots Routt 45) on Trek Checkpoint and Domane models.

There is no doubt my Kona Sutra that's such a great bike in many ways is stiffer. The Aeolus 3V wheels in the titanium vs plastic frames still keep the bikes feeling differently. Our two steel bikes for sure feel different with 5-10 mm tire width differences.

A point my dealer contact made may or may not be relevant but he said assembling and tuning about 8 - 14 Moots and about same other titanium bikes a year the premium frame stands out for a lack of threads, bottom bracket or headset issues. Also claimed superb alignment for flat mount brakes, axles and derailleur alignment. 

Thing is for some of that is there are diminishing returns when you spend and you can fix threads and fit issues. I confess having great attachment for modestly priced bikes just like high end bikes.

P.S. Just a composite fork can have an impact. I've spent time with Fargos and Vayas that have their steel and composite forks. I tested bikes with Whisky I assume are like or same as Salsa and Enve forks but was not really able to see if my Moots fork behaves differently but know a Routt 45 earlier model owner with Enve fork I'll probably be able to try.

SWGraveler wrote:Your testament to Moots is making me wonder if that is really the answer for me.. I was considering one initially and the overall value of the LS is tempting, that and there is a ~year wait list for a Moots! However, that in itself tells me that the Moots would be worth the wait.. 

mike wrote:I know some engineers love to de-value the properties of Ti.  Having owned a lot of different bikes with many different materials (like pretty much everything but bamboo, which I heard is great), I feel like I have to weigh here a little bit. The first thing is that the tube diameter, butting, frame dimensions and construction make a huge difference.  If two given frames of different materials were the same in that respect, it would still depend on those variables to determine what the "best" might be. There's a pretty popular video on Youtube, by a mechanical engineer, saying the magic feel of Ti is a myth.  Well, he's comparing strictly the stiffness and geometry of similar shapes of the different materials.  The truth is, a Ti frame builder will not create anything close to the same diameter, thickness, and shape of a builder with different materials.  I love my Ti frame bikes.  A little heavier than the same built with carbon or alu, but I'll sacrifice that for the (hallucinatory induced) "ride" and durability of the material.  I love Ti.