So why the hate for the world championship gravel race course?

20 replies · 663 views

Shaun McNally
112 posts
#1Oct 10, 2022, 8:27 AM
So, this is not about whether the UCI should run a gravel world championship race.

What this is about is all the hate for the course. Every post I saw yesterday had the same responses: "It wasn't a real gravel race, too much pavement yada yada!"
The race commentators talked about that fact saying that it was about 30% paved surfaces.....so I checked the ride gps routes for a few major events in the US that people always tout as "real gravel"

UCI Gravel world championship: 30% pavement (the actual press release for the event says 25% paved)

Unbound 200: 38% pavement
Steamboat gravel: 54% pavement
BWR CA: 62% pavement
Gravel worlds, NE: 3% pavement (I'll give you that one)
(These numbers are from the race files on the race websites)

So while it was "Italian gravel" (and two track field roads, grass paths, and dirt single track), it was still 70% off road, and over 100 miles in length.......So what are the "requirements" for a gravel race?

I also saw a bunch of posts complaining about how the "real gravel" racers weren't there (meaning the American privateers). But I've said it before, if the big European hitters wanted for be competitive in gravel, they would wipe the floor with the Lifetime series guys, and this kind of proved some of that. Alex House had his chance to compete in Italy, but he changed his mind last minute to win some little race at home this weekend. The only real gravel racer Lachlan Morton (who I consider to be an American :-) finished over 6 minutes down.

I watched the race live yesterday on GCN+ and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I went into it fully expecting a "European style" of racing and that is exactly what it was.
1
ljsmith
762 posts
#2Oct 10, 2022, 9:00 AM
Maybe because the winner was on a road bike as were some of the other top finishers. Also percentage of pavement tells you nothing about a route. Some gravel roads are very smooth, some are rough.
1
Shaun McNally
112 posts
#3Oct 10, 2022, 9:17 AM
ljsmith wrote:Maybe because the winner was on a road bike as were some of the other top finishers. Also percentage of pavement tells you nothing about a route. Some gravel roads are very smooth, some are rough.

The road bike issue was also brought up in the commentary......basically they said that today pretty much any road bike now can take tires between 30-34 mm and that is what the "road bike" riders were doing.

And that was my point, who gets to decide when a majority off pavement course is "gravel" or not?
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ljsmith
762 posts
#4Oct 10, 2022, 9:59 AM
It’s really a much bigger subject. For those that have been riding “gravel” since before it became trendy and before it was even called “gravel”, it’s about ethos. Road racing is filled with egos and people who ride to beat others. It’s not about the ride, it’s about dominating other people. Many feel gravel should be more about enjoying the people you’re riding with, not trying to beat them. About enjoying the scenery not flying by so fast you can’t even see it. So for many the UCI is a threat to all of that. Then they have a race that by most accounts was very easy terrain with pro racers on road bikes and of course you’re going to have complaining. Personally I don’t care at all because I have no interest in racing and I rarely do organized events/races. What they do has no impact on how or where I ride my bike. But many fear that their fun local events are going to become testosterone fueled ego fests and ruin it for the “regular guy” who just wants to have fun and camaraderie. Ronnie Romance has an interesting video where he talks about “The Roadification of Gravel”. It’s was an interesting watch for me.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R3FjZHiPhOU

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Angstrom
181 posts
#5Oct 10, 2022, 3:38 PM
The UCI course: 2600' of climbing in 119 miles is FLAT. Heck, Unbound has double that vertical in the 100-mile course. In Kansas. In New England it's rare to find a ride that doesn't have 1,000' of climbing per 10 miles. A world-champion gravel rider should have to show that they can climb and descend.

In the bigger picture, I see plenty of gravel events that aren't races. No timing, no results, just ride. Creative promoters are also finding ways to make racing less "serious", like this event in Iceland this year:
"This summer (June 28-July 3), the remote Westfjords of Iceland will host the first-ever Arna Westfjords Way Challenge (WFWC): a 960 km [595 mi] race through endless fjords and mountain passes, all under the 24 hour arctic sun. The twist? To complete each of the four stages, riders will be required to stop and enjoy at least two 'Cultural Connection' points along the way. These are predetermined points of interest scattered throughout the Westfjords like steaming geothermal hot pots, family-run farms, museums, and more waterfalls than participants, where race time is stopped and riders are encouraged to relax and interact with local nature and culture."

Some of the "name" gravel events work hard to make it a good experience for the folks in back as well as the folks at the front. As long as that continues, we'll be ok.

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TwoWheeler
177 posts
#6Oct 10, 2022, 4:33 PM
ljsmith wrote: Personally I don’t care at all because I have no interest in racing and I rarely do organized events/races. What they do has no impact on how or where I ride my bike.

I am of the same mind, but I don’t relish the possibility of my next bike being designed to fit the needs of Euro-pro race teams and FauxTour cosplay wannabes, rather than the average rider, as has been the case with road bikes. I had my first set of hydraulic disk brakes on a mountain bike in 2000. I had to wait about 15 years to get them on a road bike because….UCI.
1
Angstrom
181 posts
#7Oct 10, 2022, 5:33 PM
For comparison, the Strade Bianchi route has approximately 3000m of climbing over the same distance.

I'd argue for a minimum of 1000m/100km for a world championship course.
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Shaun McNally
112 posts
#8Oct 11, 2022, 9:43 AM
Angstrom wrote:For comparison, the Strade Bianchi route has approximately 3000m of climbing over the same distance.

I'd argue for a minimum of 1000m/100km for a world championship course.

I'm not sure if there is some elevation requirement for the world championship road race. I don't think there is. I mean every year it seems to be a different kind of course suited for either climbers, punchers, or sprinters.
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psi
48 posts
#9Oct 11, 2022, 1:33 PM
I was watching the women's race on Sat and was like wow of all the races I've watched (and I watch a lot, even obscure little ones), that looks like a course I would truly love to ride. I guess that's why I'm into gravel.

I think all the griping is just the natural sort of reaction of 'alt-gravelers' against the regulation behemoth that is the UCI. Sprinkle in some genuine fear about getting their asses kicked by WT pros and you have a recipe for bickering.

Kudos to the women where the top gravel racers did actually show. Sofia Gomez Villafane, Lauren di Crecenzo, Sarah Sturm. Most of them were nowhere in contention by the end but they at least gave it a kick unlike the men.

As you mention BWR is mostly road and is often raced on road bikes. I haven't heard anyone complain about that. Honestly I prefer chill gravel these days. I did a race here on Vancouver Island that was on logging roads and it was rough. Some areas were hike a bike, completely unrideable unless you had a mtb. BWR is coming up here and doing a race in the same area next spring. It's gonna be a rude awakening for any Californians that show up on a road bike.
1
thumper88
198 posts
#10Oct 12, 2022, 6:33 AMedited
A few things. Right off the top the percentages you cite for the US races are wildly inaccurate. It’s pretty widely known that if you try to use the percentages from ridewithgps etc they bear zero relationship to reality and often show 30-50 percent pavement for races that are in single digits. For whatever reason the automated systems just cant calculate gravel/pavement ratio percentages.
I've done unbound multiple times on both courses and SBT every year it has been run and there is hardly any pavement on Unbound and not much on SBT. The unbound percentage is probably in the singe digits or very close to it. SBT prob in low double digits.

Then.. let’s put aside the soulful squishy part of the gravel scene, the ethos, the unwritten rules etc which clearly is going to never be part of a UCI race, and which people can and do argue about to the point where its clear that’s a matter of personal taste and opinion.

This simply wasn’t the same sport. It was essentially road race. Anyone who watched it understands that. It was raced almost entirely on hard smooth surfaces, with road bikes and tires that could do well at Paris-Roubaix, and raced mainly by road racers. If you like that, great. Enjoy.
I personally would love to ride that course, but I like riding on any surface and it seems quite scenic etc.
Yes VDP etc probably could come over and mop the floor with stetina etc. But....they need to actually do it to say they’ve raced gravel. And they need to do it over a hard course that is 150 miles long or preferably more. We could give their euro views about gravel a nod and hold it to... 175.
Whether you can define “gravel” with cold, hard objective measurements isn’t the point. It’s hard to do, because each of the events is so different. But...Anyone who knows gravel racing knows that course wasn’t exactly it.
“A course using different variations on hard, smooth surfaces” for sure is not a good, firm definition for gravel, if we were to attempt one. And it SURELY should not be the definition for not just ANY gravel race, but the world championships of the sport.
Then objectively? Besides the bikes and tires? And UCI initially trying to use road points for the starting order? (yes, even they knew it was a road race) It was a pretty boring course even for a road course.

And some of the quick reach for animosity as the lens to look at this is, of course, from the sheer fact UCI is involved, with their usual arrogance and bumbling like the starting grid, the shorter course for women, the nature of the course, hiring a fondo company to run it.... Fondo!

The race was initially planned for the US, a course was even drawn up near Lake Tahoe, but USAC decided in the end that UCI hadn’t really given it enough time to pull together a world championship-caliber event. And they hadn’t. UCI had dithered endlessly on setting this up because it just wasn’t a priority for them. Then they tried to make their problems with deadlines USAC’s problems, too. So here we are.
And in what smells like retribution for the US calling BS on their BS, UCI has now scheduled a long list of sites for the race for years to come and the US isn’t on it. Instead, more Italy, France, Belgium and Australia. All well-known hotbeds of gravel racing, right?
It’s nice to grow the sport internationally, but to basically act as if the US doesn’t exist? And US thinking about the nature of gravel not being a part of the worlds for years to come if ever? It just doesn’t fly.
This whole thing, including the qualifiers, was done in amateurish fashion, from top to bottom.
Glad you enjoyed watching the event. Any race is at least a little interesting. You always learn things.
Including, in this case, the stereotypes about UCI cluelessness aren’t far off.
Bman
24 posts
#11Oct 12, 2022, 6:22 PM
Would the UCI ever consider teaming up with Gravel Worlds in the heart of the US, Lincoln Nebraska to hold an elite race the day after say the weekend warriors did their event?
Don’t think the UCI would ever rub shoulders with the grassroots gravel scene in the US. As another poster noted, the UCI gravel events list doesn’t include the US which gave birth to the discipline. Before someone argues that the road classics are essentially gravel, honestly consider whether you’d want to do Gravel Worlds, Outbound on a road bike beefed up for Paris Roubaix? No way…
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thumper88
198 posts
#12Oct 13, 2022, 11:59 AMedited
On evidence, UCI just isn’t taking gravel, or at least what has traditionally been known as gravel, seriously. I’m not sure it’s even taking its own version all that seriously. Feels like an afterthought just so it can seem like it’s on top of the changing nature of bike racing.
don’t let the humorous Bikepath Worlds (heh heh heh) headline below mislead you....As usual, Ben Delaney, who knows as much about gravel racing as anyone alive without being silly about it, has a constructive, positive take on things:
https://youtu.be/PgiGWsmLdyw
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psi
48 posts
#13Oct 13, 2022, 12:22 PM
I like Ben and actually rode him once when he showed up at a group ride I was on in his velonews kit.

I don't get the hate for bike paths though. It's like there is this disdain for MUPs because that's not where 'real cyclists' ride. But realistically bike paths are actually awesome to ride on. They are usually narrow and twisty and way more interesting to ride than a big wide road designed for cars. The thing that sucks is all the pedestrians and dog walkers on them. But if you clear out a long stretch of bike path, gravel or not, for an actual race, sign me up.

I've owned gravel bikes for 7 years now. For me the whole appeal of gravel is not the surface, it's the fact that there are fewer cars and more scenic environment. If you give me a car free perfectly new paved road instead of a rough chunky gravel surface somewhere scenic, I'll take it. No one is choosing the more 'gravelly' line in a race because they feel more authentic riding over it.
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Shaun McNally
112 posts
#14Oct 14, 2022, 10:59 AM
psi wrote: No one is choosing the more 'gravelly' line in a race because they feel more authentic riding over it.

Well according to the "spirit of gravel" and everyone on the internet you should 😏 I thought it was interesting a few years ago when Strickland won Unbound with a 100 mile solo attack. He was asked what he was thinking the whole time he was alone. He said all he was doing was trying to find the most firm, smooth line.

Good video Thumper, thanks. You and he brings up some good points, which I think will probably be addressed if they do this again. I personally don't think it needs to be a rough, super long race of attrition or an "adventure race" that many races tout themselves. I don't want the winner to be the one that gets the fewest flat tires. I mean, they could do a 500 mile gravel race and Lachlan Morton would probably win it by hours. I also don't want to see agreements and truces among riders that limits attacks and dictating that you must stop and wait for everyone at aid stations etc.

It's just a fact, that European gravel is different from American gravel. Hell, even American gravel is all over. I live in rural western MN, land of class V gravel. I did some events in SE MN driftless region on their crushed limestone. I don't consider that real gravel. It's basically grey pavement. Even Ben Delaney said that Steamboat gravel is very smooth, firm and "roady". The spirit of gravel says "run what you brung"..........unless it's a road bike.

To me, it seems that most of the ire is simply because it's the UCI.........They could probably run the most perfect race of 175 miles that spans northern Kansas and southern Nebraska, that requires all riders to carry a 1.5 L hydration pack, and there still will be complaining simply because it's UCI. I choose to be optimistic that there will be improvements in subsequent events, and I will enjoy the spectacle (and the internet arguing).
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Angstrom
181 posts
#15Oct 14, 2022, 12:06 PM
I was pleased to see that this year’s winner had CX experience. That indicates that the course did require some off-road skills other than pure horsepower.

What does make a gravel race more than a road race with dust, and what should distinguish a gravel champion from a road champion? Those are good questions. I’m thinking that a gravel champion should have the skills to ride well in a variety of off-road conditions, and that a championship course should test some of those.

Climbing: climbing on traction-limited surfaces is a different skill than climbing on pavement. You can’t just stand and hammer. That should be considered in course design.
I don’t necessarily want to see a race decided by flats, but line choice and knowing the tradeoffs between pushing the pace and preserving your tires is part of the gravel racing skill set. US racers often talk about making those choices as part of their race strategy. It’s a legitimate part of off-road racing.

The Midwest folks might argue that a good gravel course should have 50 miles of flat straight into a headwind. ;-)

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Angstrom
181 posts
#16Oct 14, 2022, 12:24 PM
One US rider’s view: https://www.velonews.com/news/gravel/sarah-sturm-the-dirt-on-the-uci-gravel-world-champs/
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Red Dirt
24 posts
#17Oct 16, 2022, 5:27 AM
The winner of 2022 Unbound, Ivar Slik, was 37th.
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thumper88
198 posts
#18Oct 17, 2022, 5:41 PM
Angstrom wrote:One US rider’s view: https://www.velonews.com/news/gravel/sarah-sturm-the-dirt-on-the-uci-gravel-world-champs/

Understand that she probably is putting a much more positive spin on this than she would in private. Gravel is about sponsorship, and sponsorship generally means keeping upbeat and positive and ...writing content to keep your brand going., just guessing. A lot of other riders and industry folks I DO know are pretty candid about shaking their head over this in private. I’m not talking about emotional hand-wringing, or UCI hatred.
You can debate whether this event was worthwhile, entertaining, boring, fair, unfair ... or the course was a good one or dull....whatever.
But the bottom line is, it just isn’t the same sport we do.
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thumper88
198 posts
#19Oct 17, 2022, 5:42 PM
psi wrote:I like Ben and actually rode him once when he showed up at a group ride I was on in his velonews kit.

I don't get the hate for bike paths though. It's like there is this disdain for MUPs because that's not where 'real cyclists' ride. But realistically bike paths are actually awesome to ride on. They are usually narrow and twisty and way more interesting to ride than a big wide road designed for cars. The thing that sucks is all the pedestrians and dog walkers on them. But if you clear out a long stretch of bike path, gravel or not, for an actual race, sign me up.

I've owned gravel bikes for 7 years now. For me the whole appeal of gravel is not the surface, it's the fact that there are fewer cars and more scenic environment. If you give me a car free perfectly new paved road instead of a rough chunky gravel surface somewhere scenic, I'll take it. No one is choosing the more 'gravelly' line in a race because they feel more authentic riding over it.

I’m not seeing hate for bike paths. I’m just seeing the course compared WITH bike paths. Which are great, but not something people normally use for racing.
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GSPChilliwack
91 posts
#20Oct 18, 2022, 10:53 PMedited
Hmmm. This reminds me of the changes since my first mtb races I did in the late eighties. It was pretty casual and fun. There was a trials event. My friends and I rode the trials in a shirt and tie. Mountain bike racing changed, too. But you can still go out and race your buddies in any format you want.

But I should note that I rode a gravel event out of my hometown this Spring. I would have been quicker on my mountain bike. Is that REAL gravel? ;^)
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