Panaracer Gravel King X1: Inverted tread?

AFAIK most touring tires have strong, stiff sidewalls and don't work well at low pressures. The tube version of the Almotion is an exception, it's reasonably fast and comfortable at lower pressures. Another exception is the Michelin Power Adventure, which seems to be a combination road/gravel/touring tire. I have around 400 miles on a set of those and I'm more than pleased with their performance on bad roads. They have just enough tread to make a little noise but not enough to grip on anything soft.

Interesting to read so many are using touring tyres for gravel. It goes to show that whilst so much gravel bike promo is around gravel race performance, the majority of gravel riders are perhaps more interested in endurance.

 

The Schwalbe Almotion tyre that many here are recommending certainly looks heavy duty, but it is also very heavy. 655g for 700x38 is a heavy tyre.  The same size in the Specialized Sawtooth that I’m using is only 500g. Their true inverted sawtooth tread is smooth and fast on road at 50psi and very durable on gravel so far at 40psi. + They are relatively supple and don't lose any air running tubeless. A super underrated tyre IME.

Interesting to read so many are using touring tyres for gravel. It goes to show that whilst so much gravel bike promo is around gravel race performance, the majority of gravel riders are perhaps more interested in endurance.

 

The Schwalbe Almotion tyre that many here are recommending certainly looks heavy duty, but it is also very heavy. 655g for 700x38 is a heavy tyre.  The same size in the Specialized Sawtooth that I’m using is only 500g. Their true inverted sawtooth tread is smooth and fast on road at 50psi and very durable on gravel so far at 40psi. + They are relatively supple and don't lose any air running tubeless. A super underrated tyre IME.

Yes, but the Almotion has less rolling resistance than any other tire of it's class, but the Sawtooth so far hasn't been tested to tell if it's better or worse in that regard. But the Sawtooth does have a more aggressive tread which would lead me to believe its rolling resistance would be more than the Almotion, and the casing and tread compound will make the Sawtooth wear out faster. But if you are mostly on gravel then the Sawtooth would be the better tire.

In my testing the Sawtooth is also excellent on road. Rolling resistance is very similar to a slick tyre, partly because of the slick centre line, but mostly because it is a truly inverted tread tyre. At first glance it looks like it has aggressive tread, but in fact because the tread is inverted, the rolling surface of the tyre is consistent and there are no raised knobs, the tyre actually rolls super fast.

That's sounds great, but did you compare the Almotion to the Sawtooth with test data to support the claim, or at least watts data showing how low the rolling resistance is on the Sawtooth? I couldn't find those measurements on the Sawtooth, but perhaps you did. All I know is that Almotion had the lowest rolling resistance of any touring/gravel tire they tested, but like I said, that particular agency did not test the Sawtooth, but if you have some data to show us from your testing, we all would love to see it.

Rolling resistance depends on more than just tread pattern, at least rubber compound and casing design have major influence. For a specific example compare the BRR tests of the 35 mm Conti GP5000 AS, Grand Prix Urban, and Urban Taraxagum. Same manufacturer, same size, all slicks with minimal siping.

  GP5000 AS: 15.6 W @ 40 psi, 13.6 W @ 50 psi

  GP Urban: 19.7 W @ 45 psi

  Taraxagum: 28.6 W @ 45 psi

Yes it’s all about souplesse vs puncture resistance. …also rolling resistance testing in the lab is rarely applicable in the real world, unless you're riding on a perfectly smooth velodrome!  Souplesse is everything in the road / gravel real world for rolling resistance.

Good point about souplesse vs puncture resistance. I've ridden 3 gravel tires with significant tread (GravelKing SK, Pirelli Gravel H, G-One Alround), all had souplesse and none had puncture resistance. I've ridden 5 gravel tires with almost no tread (Strada Bianca Pro, Rene Herse extralight and endurance, GravelKing slick, Michelin Power Adventure), all had souplesse and only the Strada Bianca Pro and Power Adventure had any puncture resistance. FWIW I consider the slippery Strada Bianca Pro more of a road tire and the sturdy Power Adventure more of a touring tire.

 

I need puncture resistance for everyday riding so I've also tried road tires. I've had good results with the Corsa N.EXT but 34 mm is smaller than I like. I'm patiently waiting for the Pirelli P Zero Race in 40 mm, that might be close to ideal for my use case.

I'm not all that interested in rolling resistance test data, as it’s conducted in a lab on smooth rollers, not out in the real world where the road is never smooth.  I’m basing my observations on real world riding experience. I haven’t tried the Almotions and I probably never will, unless I go on a long term cycling tour. The V-Guard Tubeless Ready 40mm version is heavy at 625g. For the road / gravel rides I do, of all the tubeless gravel tyres I’ve tested (Schwalbe’s, Gravelkings, Maxxis, etc), these Specialized Sawtooth’s (38mm 500g) are seriously underrated not only for their rolling speed but also surprisingly, their souplesse.

So what everyone is telling me that no one has any test results using a on bike power meter that can tell us what the rolling watts TEST was?

 

That's what I thought!

 

You can't go by the seat of your pants and tell us a certain tire is super fast, or use looks or price as your guide for speed. An experience rider cannot tell any differences in wattage between one thing or another if it is 10 watts or less. So unless we have some data from a on bike power meter, spewing out mumbo jumbo isn't a scientific test and thus worthless information.

 

In that vein, the only data we have with vast number of tires tested is from Bicycle Rolling Resistance, sure the tests were done on rollers, but it does give us a starting point.

 

According to Bicycle Rolling Resistance website, if you want a fast gravel tire that can also excel on the road and hard packed gravel, then the Continental Grand Prix 5000 S TR 32 is the best tire but they're too smooth for gravel use, much like their 5000 S road version. But if you go towards a inverted tread design then the Compass Bon Jon Pass tire is the lowest at 15.6 watts while the Schwalbe Almotion is 17.1, which both use more watts than the Continental GP 5000 S TR 32 knobby tire! which the difference is now more than 5 watts between either of the 3, which is well below the perceivable watts factor; but the Compass tire will only last half as long and have far less puncture resistance, and the Conti tire has less than half the puncture resistance of the Almotion, and it will only last about half as long.

 

Not saying that Almotion tires are better than Sawtooth or vice versa, and that cannot be determined since there is no data on the Sawtooth, but until I see test data proving one is better than the other, it's pointless to discuss it.

Didn't I say to use a power meter for tests? Yes I did, so where are those real world observations by using a power meter?

FWIW I can't perceive small differences in rolling resistance so in that regard I'm OK with most decent tires. AFAIK nobody measures souplesse but I can feel gross differences so I avoid stiffer tires. I seldom ride on wet roads but I've been able to feel slippage with tires which score poorly on that in BRR tests.

 

For me the most useful BRR test is tread puncture resistance. In my conditions I've had very few punctures with tires scoring 45 points or more and way too many with tires scoring 41 points or less. I can't remember ever having a sidewall puncture or cut so I don't worry about that.

 

Unfortunately very few of the gravel tires which meet my BRR puncture resistance threshold have much tread, only one has more that 1.5 mm center knob height. I shouldn't be surprised because knobby tires aren't generally designed for riding on glass-covered pavement.

Yup the reality is: No empirical data beyond BRR (BicycleRollingResistance).

 

That said I have a set of 45mm X1 and they ride great, especially when conditions get softer. They definitely don't feel any less responsive than my other wheels which have 42 mm (ish) GK SS and SK. Hopefully the X1 is more puncture resistant than the original SK.

 

Running on 23mm internal rims the 700x45 X1 measures almost 48mm. They stretched about 1mm after about 200 miles. Fortunately my OBED GVR has room for the tires to stretch and the folks at OBED said they have also observed the X1 measures wider than 45. In contrast the Conti Terra Speed 700x40 initially measured just shy of 39mm and stretched to 40.5mm after 800 ish miles.

Oh you said did you?!  Ha ha! 🙂) …dude, I don’t use a power meter.  I go on how I feel when I ride. ...New school I know!

That's what I thought, you have no proof, I'm ending this part of our conversation with you because you have no proof. Now if we were talking about puncture resistance vs other tires, or tread life vs other tires, than we could have a discussion and evidence would be our experiences; but trying to discuss wattage on the road without power meters is useless information based on feeling and no empirical data to support that claim. What you are asking is similar to being a judge for a murder case, the evidence points no where, with nothing to say he did or didn't do it, but you decide to convict based on your feelings, you wouldn't do that, nor can we allow your testimony about how your tires feel, because to someone else they could feel differently.  

 

So I'm not going to discuss this subject with you, you can go preach about it all you want but I'm done, if you want to discuss the other things I mentioned, fine we can do that, but I won't discuss the rolling resistance thing any further because you have to proof to present your case. Not trying to be mean, but facts are facts, and in the absence of facts there is no proof, so it just become fiction.