Help a NEWBIE out- first gravel ride

41 replies · 965 views

Slim
300 posts
#21May 6, 2020, 8:05 AMedited
https://cyclingtips.com/2020/05/gravel-bike-vs-mountain-bike-are-you-better-off-with-a-hardtail-mtb/

You can also run a suspension fork on many gravel bikes, even on my Salsa Warbird, for example!
https://bikerumor.com/2019/11/18/niner-mcr-9-rdo-full-suspension-gravel-bike-review/

https://bikepacking.com/bikes/salsa-cutthroat-v2-review/
Is a rigid, drop bar mtb. I has a suspension corrected fork though, so you could run it with a suspension fork.

Here is a picture of Lael Wilcox on her drop bar mtb:
(from this article: https://www.renehersecycles.com/blog/ )
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chas
1,305 posts
#22May 6, 2020, 12:15 PM
You can also run a suspension fork on many gravel bikes, even on my Salsa Warbird, for example!

It really has to be a frame designed for a suspension - i.e. the head tube has to be short enough where you could add 50mm of travel in there (Ridged this might mean you are going to have an extra 50mm of clearance above your tire in your fork). I can't do that on my bike for example.
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chas
1,305 posts
#23May 6, 2020, 12:30 PM
TrailRunnah wrote:

Herein lies the conundrum. I think the terrain I’m on is unique and my reasons for being there are unique too. I’m very literal and when I heard “Gravel Bike” I was thinking a bike that could handle the roughness of these mountain roads, but that isn’t what I think most folks use them for....

When I hear "gravel bike" I think of the picture at the top of this page. Riding through farm roads in the midwest, although there is obviously a lot more to it than that stereotype.

Generally, a gravel bike could be thought of as aimed at any dirt road you could take a car down.

When you say "roughness of these mountain roads" the term mountain makes me think of mountain bike, lol. If you need the ground clearance and high profile tires of an SUV or 4WD, you may need a mountain bike (although as discussed here there is a lot of crossover lately).

The first question I ask when buying a bike (or even when I just go out for a ride), is what size tire do I need? That is the starting point for me in a bike purchase.
On the road I'm 32mm or under
on Gravel I'm 40-45mm
If it is rough - i.e. Sandy, rooty, rocky, or anything that would bottom out a 40mm tire, or where I need the tire pressure to be in the 20's I'm going to be on a 50-60mm tire.

Tire size/pressure is going to make a bigger difference than anything else on your bike.

It does sound like a good cross country hardtail mountain bike will meet your needs. They tend to be focused on climbing, and shouldn't give up anything downhill on a road road you can drive a car on.

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chas
1,305 posts
#24May 6, 2020, 12:47 PM
Zurichman wrote:

Chas since you know a lot more about bikes than me I have this ? and not to hijack his post. I am really satisfied with my Roker Comp now as my gravel race bike. I am retiring in 1-2 years and want to buy a retirement bike. I am looking for a bike that will handle some single track or nastier courses than my Roker is probably good for. I am probably willing to spend. $4000 - $5000 or $5000 - $6000. Somebody suggested the Specialized Epic Expert as that she said is what most folks ride the Leadville 100 on. I know Niner has some stuff out there and also have hear of Marin. I looked up the Specialized bike and it list weight is 24.5 lbs. I am not going to buy a bike that heavy. Is there a bike like I am looking for in the 18-20 lb range and I know nothing between the difference in a hard tail and a bike that has a shock. Any suggestions would be welcome so I can do some reviews. Now or maybe next time this year would be probably a nice time to buy a last years leftover bike.

Thanks
Zman

Zman, I’ve been riding the same mountain bike for 25+ years, and boy have things changed in the MTB world. Everything new seems to be a “trail” bike these days. Hard tails cross country bikes are not the focus, even though they are great for people who don’t ride in bike parks in the mountains.
Front and rear suspension are going to add weight, so 18-20lbs is going to tend to rule those out. Rear suspension is nice, but a thud buster works great if you are looking for comfort. I doubt that you or I will be doing much air time where you really need the suspension – although a rear suspension obviously helps when flying through rock gardens and roots at speed.
It seems that every year, mountain bikes get longer/lower/slacker – making them easier to go fast down hill (and sometimes making it hard to go up hill). It does shock me that a 30lb mountain bike is rather normal these days.
Generally cross country hard tails are considered too “twitchy” and difficult to ride (because they are not long/low/slack enough), although that would be perfect for gravel rides and single track that is not too technical. My Olympic winning mountain bike from the mid ‘90s would be considered a nightmare on single track today, but works amazingly well as a gravel bike.
I would think any of the top end mountain bikes from Trek, Specialized, RDO, Niner, Canyon, etc would be relatively comparable. I don’t think you’ll find a hard tail under 20lbs, add a couple lbs if you want a rear suspension.

When I am doing a gravel ride with the local cross country racers (on hardtails), I find I can climb better than them because my bike and tires/wheels are a lot lighter, and my top speed is a lot faster because of the gearing (all of which helps as they are a lot faster and younger than me, lol).
Mountain bikes tend to be categorized by how much travel they have, but they really should be rated by how much of their focus is climbing vs descending.
Cmtgravel
83 posts
#25May 6, 2020, 5:10 PM▲ Top
Here's my take on this: You're spoiled by suspension! Haha! Not meant as an insult. Those of us old enough to remember learning to mtn bike on fully rigid bikes basically riding through the woods (no such thing as groomed trails then) learned how to choose line and use a LOT of "body english" to get through. And of course, being youngsters then, we didn't mind being bumped and jostled around as much. I stopped mtn biking in the late 90's (had a hardtail by then), so i never really unlearned those skills. When i started gravel biking several years ago, those skills slowly began to return . But now, in my 50's, a rough gravel ride leaves me sore for days! I do have to say that last fall i rode a full squish mtn bike for the first ever time, with hydro brakes and dropper post, on groomed trails, and it was heaven! So i would just say stick with it, learn some new skills, avoid the really rough stuff, and you'll be fine. A gravel bike is really just an old-timey rigid mtn bike w drop bars!
3
TrailRunnah
30 posts
#26May 6, 2020, 10:15 PM
Cmtgravel wrote:Here's my take on this: You're spoiled by suspension! Haha! Not meant as an insult. Those of us old enough to remember learning to mtn bike on fully rigid bikes basically riding through the woods (no such thing as groomed trails then) learned how to choose line and use a LOT of "body english" to get through. And of course, being youngsters then, we didn't mind being bumped and jostled around as much. I stopped mtn biking in the late 90's (had a hardtail by then), so i never really unlearned those skills. When i started gravel biking several years ago, those skills slowly began to return . But now, in my 50's, a rough gravel ride leaves me sore for days! I do have to say that last fall i rode a full squish mtn bike for the first ever time, with hydro brakes and dropper post, on groomed trails, and it was heaven! So i would just say stick with it, learn some new skills, avoid the really rough stuff, and you'll be fine. A gravel bike is really just an old-timey rigid mtn bike w drop bars!

Ha! Let me clarify. I rode a Hoo-Koo-E-Koo old school bike up until about 6 years ago with c-lever brakes. So, my threshold of a rough ride isn’t too awfully low.

Most of my mountain biking has been in the foothills on wooded, rooty trails. What I’m riding now is a different animal. Not tight winding and rooty trails, but rough, washed out gravel roads with loads of climbs and downhills where you hit 25-30mpg and there is no choosing a line on a gravel road with washboards and ruts.

Also note, since I was in college in 90’ and wiped out on a road bike I haven’t been on anything but a mountain bike and haven’t touched pavement since. It was a bad crash. So, I really think air pressure and tire width is the key here - but I want to test it before buying a new bike and “hoping” that it works.
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Slim
300 posts
#27May 7, 2020, 8:04 AM
chas wrote:

It really has to be a frame designed for a suspension - i.e. the head tube has to be short enough where you could add 50mm of travel in there (Ridged this might mean you are going to have an extra 50mm of clearance above your tire in your fork). I can't do that on my bike for example.

yes indeed!!! I should have written it that way.
The stock rigid fork should be extra tall to avoid messing up the geomtry, and most importantly, the frame needs to be strong enough to handle the fork.
A Salsa Warbird is built to accept a gravel suspension fork, a Salsa Cutthroat is built to takea mtb fork. And so are many other gravel bikes, check the spec pages.

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smoothmoose
210 posts
#28May 7, 2020, 2:20 PM
TrailRunnah wrote:

Ha! Let me clarify. I rode a Hoo-Koo-E-Koo old school bike up until about 6 years ago with c-lever brakes. So, my threshold of a rough ride isn’t too awfully low.

Most of my mountain biking has been in the foothills on wooded, rooty trails. What I’m riding now is a different animal. Not tight winding and rooty trails, but rough, washed out gravel roads with loads of climbs and downhills where you hit 25-30mpg and there is no choosing a line on a gravel road with washboards and ruts.

Also note, since I was in college in 90’ and wiped out on a road bike I haven’t been on anything but a mountain bike and haven’t touched pavement since. It was a bad crash. So, I really think air pressure and tire width is the key here - but I want to test it before buying a new bike and “hoping” that it works.

I still have my old school 1998 Gary Fisher HT, but I don't ride it anymore - it's my wife's commuter now. To be honest - I prefer my gravel bike to the old school HT for the trails I ride - it maybe because the HT front suspension is clapped out and the old 26" tires are skinnier than on my 2.2" gravel off road setup - it could be the dropper post on gravel bike where my old HT does not.

IMO you decision point should be how much flat roads you'll be riding whether paved or gravel. If you think your normal gravel ride will exceed 35-40% flat terrain, the gravel bike is the way to go. Bombing down rutting out roads at 30mph+, the HT will always be faster.
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TrailRunnah
30 posts
#29May 8, 2020, 8:11 AM
@smoothmoose What are the gravel roads like where you're riding? Pretty beat up, washboardish? 2.2" tires at what pressure? Do you have photo of your setup?
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smoothmoose
210 posts
#30May 8, 2020, 10:56 AM
First below is my 27.5 x 2.2" setup and below that my 700x38c (used for commuting and smoother gravel). The picture for the 27.5 is from Marin headlands trail system just over the Golden Gate bridge in SF. You can google some pics of the tracks there or look at some photos here: https://www.mtbproject.com/directory/8013300/marin-headlands

Honestly, over there you'll find a mix of bikes from semi skinny tire gravel bikes like yours to people riding their FS MTB. Most probably bypass the trail sections their bike is not ideal for. For me with this setup I can hit everything, including riding in from SF over the Golden Gate bridge to get there.

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smoothmoose
210 posts
#31May 8, 2020, 12:23 PM
TrailRunnah wrote:@smoothmoose What are the gravel roads like where you're riding? Pretty beat up, washboardish? 2.2" tires at what pressure? Do you have photo of your setup?
I weight about 150-155lbs depending on gear and ride with 22/25psi on the 2.2"
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ccand51997
265 posts
#32May 8, 2020, 5:46 PM
TrailRunnah wrote:@smoothmoose

I'm having a lot of remorse having returned that bike. I'm contemplating calling them back and having them mount wider tires on it, reducing air pressure and maybe even getting that stem if I still need it. I think bike adjustment, and the previous mods will make this bike handle this terrain - I just wish I had one with this set up to try first.
.

It did not take me long before I decided I wanted suspension on my all-road bike. As such, I went looking for a mtb frame and I run a 29in rear tire with a 27.5 100mm fork to get the front end down. I think true gravel is doable on 40mm tires, but nothing I ride fits that category. So, I run a Byway 47mm tire up front, with suspension, a Conti RaceKing or Schwalbe G-One Speed on back and also mount up cross levers on the tops of the drop bar so I can descend in a better position. All in all, it is the most fun I have ever had on a bike. Every race I do, I put a huge amount of time into guys on rigid forks going downhill and I'm not even an aggressive downhill rider. Yes, 2.2 tires will help, but nothing helps your speed confidence and comfort like that suspension fork. I run it pretty soft so that I really only get 70-80mm of travel after the sag, but it is so much more comfortable with the fork that I would never go back.
I have not really tested it yet, but I suspect I go faster overall with the heavier (probably 3 extra pounds) suspension fork because of how much faster I can go downhill.
2
Dino Sore
27 posts
#33May 9, 2020, 5:55 AMedited
Lots of good suggestions here, but many involve expensive upgrades or a new bike. From the photo, it looks like you are running Donnelly X'Plor MSO 36mm tires. I can't tell for sure, but they look like the tubed version. Are they, and what pressure do you run?

The specs for that bike say it comes with tubeless ready wheels and can accept up to 42mm tires. If that is the case, before you spend big bucks on other stuff, I would try a 40 or 42 tire, set up tubeless. Run as low a tire pressure as you can get away with.
I run these tires in 40mm, set up tubeless, at 33/36 psi (F/R). I weigh 200 lbs, so if you're skinny you can probably go a lot lower in pressure. I am also a mountain biker, and I can ride these tires on just about any terrain, including gravel roads that are only "suggestions" or have eroded into dry stream beds. You can also try tires with a more aggressive tread, but it might slow you down on the smoother stuff.

Before they had a tubeless version, I used these tires with tubes and higher pressures and I did have a few butt-puckering moments on loose, steep downhills. The tubeless versions at lower pressures were a significant improvement for me.
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TrailRunnah
30 posts
#34May 9, 2020, 6:48 AM
@ccand51997 YES- you just described what happened last week. my buddy on his heavier Mt Bike had an overall faster ride due to dropping me on downhills like a hot potato. He is getting skinny tires as we speak and is going to stick with that set up.

I agree a front suspension is needed- have you seen the new Specialized Diverge? It has a small shock in the stem. It also takes wide tires (One major limitation to the Jamis- I think 42c was widest it takes maybe even less).

I’m thinking hard about this bike b/c it is ready to go with little or no mods needed to tackle these Rugged AF roads.

bottom line: either I need to do what you’ve done with a light Mt Bike or add wider tires and a fork to a gravel bike which is available now standard on the Divergent.

@Dino Sore Yes- that’s what I was running, but I don’t like being limited in width on the Jamis. I weigh 177 and like your thoughts on tubeless and low pressure. Hopefully with the shock in the stem if I buy that bike I can keep a little more air in the tire for speed on flats.

thanks- all great suggestions from you guys- helping me think through this before I drop a lot of cash.
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GravelInSipsey
24 posts
#35May 9, 2020, 7:47 AM
TrailRunnah wrote:
thanks- all great suggestions from you guys- helping me think through this before I drop a lot of cash.

Here's a different way of thinking through the problem. There is a different skillset needed with gravel riding than MTB'ing - or being a rodie. As an experienced MTB'er, a green single track is probably a bit boring to you. A decent MTB makes the trail disappear below you. On a gravel bike this same trail can become quite an adventure. If nothing else, riding that trail on a gravel bike, with say 700x42c tires, will present a new challenge and cause you to sharpen your bike handeling skills. This includes not smashing through rocky areas and forcing you to look hard at line choice. I find it is just as enjoyable and transforms a trail I'm tired of into a new adventure.

Once you get the bike handling thing figured out, any decent gravel bike with the proper tires will be a great companion and will not beat you to death. When I take my MTB on a gravel adventure I find myself way over-biked and a lot of the fun it taken out - especially on long up hills. I've found the above advice has helped many of the MTB'ers and Rodies I've taken out on their first gravel adventure. Both types of riders complain of being "beaten to death" because they don't have (fill in the blank with a widget). Once they spend some time working on handeling skills and setting up the bike for the terrain they ride, most of these issues disappear and enjoyment sets in.

In a way, the skills are the same ones needed back when we all rode ridged MTBs - or at least some of us, I've been at this for a while.

Just a thought,
1
Gasman
53 posts
#36May 9, 2020, 8:56 AMedited
Just some more food for thought.....
I too came from MTB and some close calls that, at 56, made me think time to chill. Ive been on gravel a year and learned a lot from this forum and talking to people. The advice regarding being in the drops vs hoods on the decent is the best advice. I wish i knew that a year ago. Ive had a ton of bikes over the last year and have landed on a stable of three that would lead me to give you this advice from another beginner. My main gravel bike is an All City Gorilla Monsoon custom built by a builder. I dont race and rarely ride with more then one other person so comfort was my main goal. Don’t get me wrong, every time i hit a segment i try to go faster then whatever my PR is but I’m not racing. I have Spank rims (MTB rims) with Schwalbe Thunder Burt 2.25 (also MTB) tires. That combination plus a bike sized perfectly (in my case very upright with a Velo Cigna gooseneck stem) allows me to go on the road, gravel and single track. I’m not wining any climb contests, and sometimes i wish i was faster. The ability to ride form my house, to the gravel rides leading to singletrack and then back home makes the bike perfect. So for me, fit first, big 650b tires that role well second. I just sold a cannondale Slate with 38 G Ones. I would say there is very little difference in the Slate w 38’s & 30mm of suspension and the Gorilla with 2.25’s with low pressure. Locking out the slate on a road climb helped for sure. I hate aluminum and the sound and feel, otherwise the slate would be a great gravel / road bike IMO. I will defiantly save up to try the Niner MCR and bet in five years full suspension gravel will be the norm. When i took my FS MTB out I almost forgot how plush it is compared to the chatter and vibration on gravel. Best of luck, it might also be worth renting bikes from your LBS and try them. Rides in the parking lot are very different then even 5-10 miles in the real world. Also make sure you get fitted if you can it makes a difference if its a builder.

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Skldmark
164 posts
#37May 9, 2020, 2:09 PMedited
Gasman wrote:Just some more food for thought.....

I like it. I run several similar setups. One with the Jones (Bend) bar for even rougher terrain and single track. Though I see you are now looking for suspension.

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smoothmoose
210 posts
#38May 9, 2020, 2:49 PM
Lots of good advice here, but again I revert back to my first question to you @TrailRunnah - What is your ride fantasy?
- I want to explore long rides on roads both paved and gravel - and a bit of trails
  - Gravel bike - typical build: dropbars, rigid, 35-42mm tires (i.e. the Jamis)
- I want/need to ride roads to get to the trailhead and get on some green trails
  - Gravel bike - fatter tire build: dropbars, rigid, 45-50mm tires
- I want my XC MTB trails to be more challenging/exciting
  - Gravel bike - monstercross build: dropbars, rigid, 2.0-2.3" tires, dropper post
- I want to bomb down most stuff and still be pretty efficient climbing - I don't plan to ride any type of roads or flat terrain
  - HT MTB - 100mm travel, dropper post
- I want to be fast across most terrain except flat roads and gnarly stuff and ride lots of miles
  - FS XC MTB - 100-120mm travel front and back, dropper, LIGHT, $$$
- I want to be fast across almost anything, efficient on road
  - Dropbar MTB - 2.0-2.3" tires, 40-80mm travel fork
- I want to be fast, efficient on road, and challenge myself on BLUE/BLACK MTB trails
  - Dropbar MTB - 2.1-2.4" tires, 100-120mm travel fork
Final question to you - what's your current stable of bikes? Sounds like you have FS MTB. What is it geared for? XC, trail, enduro??? Depending what you have you probably want to create separation with your N+1. Based on everything you told us thus far, I would think HT is better for you. But if you have an XC MTB 100mm travel, I'm not sure that's enough separation.
1
TrailRunnah
30 posts
#39May 11, 2020, 7:39 AM
@smoothmoose

My Ride Fantasy is being able to climb well and bomb down hills on these rough washed out mountain roads and be pretty fast on the flats. This bike is to help me cross train for trail ultras. So, lots of steep climbs and steep down hills with washouts, rocks and divots at higher speeds.

I have a full suspension mountain bike geared for technical trails here in the south east

I think this weekend I'll take my mt bike and do a shorter but still climbey ride up there to see how well it climbs. Then I'll have a different perspective on the same roads with a vastly different set up.
.
0
epzamora
114 posts
#40May 17, 2020, 9:56 PMedited
Did we ever learn if the OP was running tubeless? This helps with lower pressure, and smoothes out rough rides. The RedShift stem helps as well. and 36-38s are way too narrow as somebody else suggested.

I would have gone to at LEAST 47c wide tubeless tires with some grip (not like the WTB Byways)... but as someone mentioned, 650b x 2.1 tires are fantastic, but not all bikes can fit that. And I've taken mine up some rocky sections. And once you get used to a gravel bike, one that's set up decently, you can descend mountain double track, dirt, gravel, a mix, whatever, pretty quickly. It's just called skill and ability, which comes with time in the saddle.

if you REALLY wanted something that blurs the line between gravel and mtb, check out the aforementioned Evil Chamois Hagar, or Niner MCR (Magic Carpet Ride) 9 RDO.

eric/fresno, ca.
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