Hoping you can give me some feed back. 11/14/2020: I just noticed that Canyon in the US just released a new gravel bike: Grail CF SL 8 Di2. Previously I was going to buying the Grail CF SLX 8 Di2, mainly because I wanted the Di2 setup. The Grail CF SL 8 Di2 is $3999 and the Grail CF SLX 8 Di2 is $5299. They are identical bikes except for the frame and wheels. The SLX frame total weight at 8.44 kg and SL frame at 8.88 kg. The wheels for the SLX are Reynolds ATR carbons and the wheels for the SL are DT Swiss G1800 Spline db. The weight is not really a deciding factor. But combined with the Reynolds ATR carbons, do you think it is worth the $1300 difference with the frame? From what I can tell a set of Reynolds ATR carbons are about $1300-$1500 retail and a set of DT Swiss G1800 Spline db are $500. Notice to everyone, I am novice when it comes to bike components.
I think this is a no brainer but there is a part of that always think $$$ is better, but that must be that lizard part of my brain. Initially with the SLX, I was going to create a second set of wheels. Use the Reynolds ATR as road bike wheels and buy another DT Swiss G1800 Spline db as off road wheels. Matching of the same components with new tires I think it I priced it at around $1000. So that is $5299 + $1000. Now if I go with SL setup and buy a second set wheels, Reynolds ATR with same components I am looking at spending at least $1800. Now it is $3999 + $1800.
Also from what Canyon says the SLX is much stiffer than the SL and combined with the Reynolds ATR Carbons this reduces the chatter, reducing the fatigue that can stack up. So the price differences of $1300 is lowest retail cost of the ATR carbons. This stacks the favor towards SLX. I get a stiffer frame and carbon wheels with a lower total bike weight at -.44 kg. How much stiffer is the SLX frame vs SL frame? Will I really know the difference, and if I do how far do I have to ride to feel the difference? I could go with the SL frame, save the $1300 and go with even better rims than the Reynolds ATR. Feels like I am trying put better tries on a car, like putting Mercedes AMG wheels and an E class car. Need to some feed back to help me decide and to make sure the lizard brain is not in total control.
I'm somewhat of a skeptic on manufacturer's claims regarding "stiffness". It's a pretty hard thing to objectively measure and whether it benefits you specifically - that's even harder to measure. There's also some trade off with carbon fiber between stiffness and tensile strength. I doubt Canyon is going to put a frame out there that's brittle to the point of being compromised in any way but the "lower grade" or slightly heavier carbon fiber may well be a somewhat more durable option if you plan to beat on your bike. And, that's what gravel bikes are for - to be beaten on.
Unless that weight (which is roughly 1lb) really matters to you I just don't think that you will really feel much difference in the frames. Furthermore, if you put the same components on both frames and rode them side by side, I doubt you'd be able to discern which frame cost more just from riding them.
I'm sure you'll get people with opinions that differ from mine but I have ridden a lot of bikes and my personal hierarchy of option importance goes 1.) Getting the right fit (so making sure you've got the bike you want, the stem is the right length and the seat is set where you need it 2.) Groupset 3.) Wheels 4.) Tires 5.) pedals, shoes, kit, etc...and then somewhere underneath all that I would upgrade the frame itself to the "extra special carbon" version.
Good friggen question, and I'd like to know the answer.
I don't know I've read a review where anyone commented on the difference between the SLX and the SL. I tend to think its mostly weight, but I would love to know the truth.
FYI, I have the SLX frame (Inflite) that came with the GR1600 rims, and bought a second set of carbon rims for my slicks (32mm GP5000). Its great to have two bikes in one, and my bike is quite fast with the GP5000.
I'll say, the SLX frame shocked me with how comfortable, responsive, and fast it is. I got a lot of PRs on that bike when I first got it, and at the same time would stop to check my tire pressure - it was so comfortable I thought at first I was getting a flat tire. I would be surprised if the SL was much different, but I would love to know!
sojuforall wrote:Actually good a good reply from a reddit user.
So, what was your takeaway?
I will say my Inflite SLX is insanely nippy and direct (its also more road oriented than a Grail). When I do out of the saddle accelerations, it just jumps. On the road, it dives into corners. Its so responsive I had to adjust my steering because I was cutting corners too tight initially. Yet it is comfortable enough I can ride the thing all day and be relaxed enough to want to sprint up that last hill climb. (the only drawback to going all day is the stack on an Inflite is too low to be called an endurance bike).
I race Crits, CX, Gravel, it does it all (with the appropriate rubber).
If you (like me) want a set of carbon wheels and a second set (DT swiss), you can justify the expense of the SLX. I think I've seen DT Swiss rims for ~500 a wheelset.
I've never ridden an SL, but the SLX in my case really makes me smile. How much of that is the specific carbon layup, I don't know.
I was always leaning towards the SLX with it being more stiff and carbon rims. I just wanted to make sure my lizard brain was not the driving force. After hearing the feedback from the Canyon rider about the responsiveness difference, I am defininetly pulling trigger for the SLX. Just waiting on Canyon to restock the bike, at this rate another 3-4 weeks until I able have it in my possession.
I am always about what is the best deal. It makes sense. The better is with the SLX which includes the carbon rim. If went with the SL and wanted carbon rims, the savings I would have gotten eaten up with the purchase of the carbon rims. In SLX deal, I have the carbon rims and stiffer frame at get go.
If am matching the same configuration as Canyon initial setup in the SL and SLX, a set DT Swiss's minimum cost is $1000 with the same axle, brake disc, tire, and cassette then and the Reynolds ATR are $1800.
I have no experience with riding either of the Canyon frames though I am following this as I see myself buying a Canyon at some point. One thought that occurs to me is to consider if the Reynolds wheels would be the wheels you would choose if you were spending $1800 on a wheelset. Not say anything good nor bad about them, again, no experience with them, just saying that if you are buying your dream gravel bike, it should have wheels you lust after, not just "carbon wheels". Carbon wheels are certainly not all created equally and, IMHO, wheels are much more likely to affect the riding experience than what I would imagine is a fairly slight difference in frame ride qualities..
Good point about dream wheels. But I wanted to make sure I was comparing apples to apples instead of apples to oranges. With the bike being prebuilt and no option to switch out parts before the sales, I was trying to figure out the cost difference between the wheels and the frames. The parts are identical except for the axles, rims and frames. Narrowing in on the rims only, the cost for the DT swiss is about 500 for the set, and the Reynolds are 1300. This gives us 3999-500=3499 and 5299-1300=3999, making the difference of 500 between the SL and SLX frame. Now swap rims between the two prebuilt bikes, SLX: 3999+500 = 4499 and SL: 3499+1300=4799. The best deal is the prebuilt SLX frame at 5299. Now it comes to cash reserves. Do you think spending extra 1300 is worth the difference or do you think 1300 is bigger bang for the buck? I have always been a person about the bigger bang or the buck because I like to add and upgrade. And after hearing some of differences in the frames and how the SLX frames responds, I know my lizard brain is in control but I know it is a good deal.
I am truly a lazy and impatient person. So when it comes to switching out wheels, the wheels are complete with no other swapping parts out. The 1800 includes matching the prebuilt parts: the rims, tires, axle, cassette, 2 brake rotors (front and back). The $1800 was on controlled reference. Most likely I will get some 650b rims for a 2nd set for intermediate and plus off-road trails. But I need to make sure there is enough clearance is if I go with the 650b otherwise it will be 700 with differenent tires and rims. Not sure yet which ones.
Gotta make sure the wife doesn't know the cost difference. Odd how it works. She is ok with 3k purse but will critize me on 5k bike.
SWGraveler wrote:Carbon wheels are certainly not all created equally and, IMHO, wheels are much more likely to affect the riding experience than what I would imagine is a fairly slight difference in frame ride qualities..
I know nothing about the SL frame, but I'll say the difference between my SLX and every other bike I have ridden is astounding. It is as responsive as my Velodrome bike, yet at the same time being comfortable enough for gravel. For me, that is my Grail bike (LoL).
sojuforall wrote:Most likely I will get some 650b rims for a 2nd set for intermediate and plus off-road trails. But I need to make sure there is enough clearance is if I go with the 650b otherwise it will be 700 with differenent tires and rims.
Your frame is a little different than mine, but there is no way a 650b will fit on there (in a useful way). The chainstays are parallel near the crank - meaning you get no extra room with smaller wheels. You should confirm this as I many be wrong, but I'd be surprised if you can put 650's on there.
I also have another dilemma. Canyon sizing calculator puts me at XS on the grail bike. I am OK with the XS, but I guess XS and XXS are limited to the 650b wheels. That's not ideal. I am mainly going to be on pavement and light trails, so the 700c are perfect for my riding. If I change by height by 1 inch it puts me on the S frame and the 700c wheels. Also I called Canyon to get info about the Grail's freehub. I told them I was going to build a second set of 650b wheels so I ride with my buddy who has a MTB. They made no indication that it would be a problem, might have to call them again to verify.
Well, the calculator goes purely off of height (AFAIK). I'm really more interested in cockpit length, so I measure the length of my current bike, and go for a bike that matches that.
The point of the 650b wheels is to get the lively handling of a larger bike, but without the extreme angles (and toe overlap) that most bikes resort to to replicate that handling. If the bike really fits you, you'll probably find it handles better than what you are used to.
of course, 650b wheels limit your tire selection.
In your shoes, I just waited until the beginning of my credit card billing cycle, bought both sized bikes, and then a few weeks later sent back the one that fit me the worst. Didn't cost me a thing - other than a substantial amount of time.
chas wrote: In your shoes, I just waited until the beginning of my credit card billing cycle, bought both sized bikes, and then a few weeks later sent back the one that fit me the worst. Didn't cost me a thing - other than a substantial amount of time.
Yeah, If I did that the wife would probably boot me to the street. If she only knew how much I have spent in new shoes, bibs, helment, computer, pedals, and second wheelset. I think I might be homeless soon.
