Moots Routt 45 or Why Cycles R+

Hello all- 
First time post on this forum. I did some searching, but I'm not seeing the answer to my question. 

I'm looking at getting a new bike (was recently hit by a car and my commuter was totaled), and I want Ti for longevity and a supple ride. I was commuting on a Trek Madone (aluminum), and I'm done with Aluminum for commuting. I also want this bike to be something that I can bikepack with this next year, so having the ability to clear 700x45c tires is almost a must. I have read about both bikes over and over and over, even talked to the guys at the shop I used to work at, and they all agree that the Why R+ is such a great value, that its hard to pass up.

That said, I called Moots, and they delivered a Routt (not the 45) in my size, and I test rode it for a week, that thing was sweet, can only imagine what another 10mm of tire will feel like. Props to Moots. I know they charge a premium for their bikes, but its American sourced Ti and built right here in Colorado, they've even invited me to their facility to see how things are done. I really like the fact that its all "local".

Adam @ Why Cycles, is willing to work with me to get the thing set up the way I want. And the Why Cycles R+ offers a 30-day, no questions asked, guarantee, which I have not taken advantage of. Aside from being willing to customize this bike to however I'd like to build it, I worry about the build of the bike. Adam let me know that the Ti is sourced from Russia and then assembled in China (he said the assembly plant is in a small town, and was very nice). This is less exciting to me, as I have read horror stories about Ti bikes built overseas, as the cleanliness is less than on par with that we do here.

So my question, which bike would you go with? Moots Routt 45 or the Why Cycles R+? Knowing that the build from Why will be ~$7,200 and the Moots will be ~$8,500...

More information; I live in Colorado, and I commute about 18 miles each way. I have been riding for about 10 years seriously, and own aluminum, steel, and carbon, so I have a pretty good idea of what each material feels like, but this was my first experience with Ti. 

Any help is greatly appreciated!

The R+ is good for running 650b WTB horizon, nano, and Terrene Elwood. It is also verified to be able to run a lauf grit. \n \nThe moots can run all currently 700c tires (maybe not the WTB 45 riddler)plus the 40's that tend to squish out larger. Looks like it could run a lauf grit at the expense of tire size. \n \nIt should be about what type of tires that interest that you most

I think the Why looks like a better overall bike design, the only thing I don't like is the 31.6 seatpost, but that is easily fixed with a shim.  What is the warranty?  I would want a lifetime warranty on a Chinese made frame.  I'm not saying that all frames made in China are bad, but you really just don't know.  I personally would  not go with the Why without a lifetime warranty.  The Moots has a lifetime warranty and will have better resale value (if that matters to you).  

Both bikes have a lifetime warranty, but Why has only been around for 8 months, and Moots has been around for 35 years. Adam @Why was the founder of Borealis, which is still seen as a great company, then he founded Why in 2016. I'm not sure if I should be worried about the lack of history he has, if, lets say, I break the frame in three years, will the company still be around to honor the lifetime warranty?

Also, both bikes are compatible with a 650b wheelset. If I went with the Why, the money saved would allow me to buy a second wheelset, and I could run both tubeless and just swap.

Regarding the resale, I really am looking for a bike I can use for a 20+ years, so I'm not sure I care much about the resale on this specific bike. I think that's where Moots is a stand out winner, but even 100+ year old banks closed their doors in recent history, so I guess nothing is guaranteed to be lifetime. 

Forgive my ignorance on this one how does the moots 45 run 650bs? I can understand the 41mm knard, 43 Rock'N'Road, 38 G-One, and 38/42 gravel kings. I don't understand how it can run 47 horizon, 47 elwood, and 2.1 nano. Dosen't the 45mm width/clearance on the frame prevent anything wider?

I assume it comes down to the 45mm chainstays. I know that there was one built out at the LBS in Boulder, and the customer got both a 700c and 650b wheelset built out. Also, here is an article stating that it runs them, and they have photos with the 650's fitted: https://cyclepathpdx.com/2014/10/the-new-moots-adventure-bike-routt-routt-45/

"Initially the bike featured above was running Schwalbe Thunderburt 27.5″ x 2.1″ tubeless tires, but the chainstays were getting rubbed the wrong way." \n \nIt also is shown running compass babyshoes, but that runs 42 and would be expected to run okay. I forgot about thunderburts but that's another good 650b tire to run. \n \nArticle also reads about 1.95 Maxxis tire. So maybe the testers in the article knows that its good up to that size without rub. So I'd maybe expect tire/rim expansion of the 47 horizon and elwoods to come up near that size, that stuff is always hard to gauge accurately. IF it only ends up being the horizon and the elwoods where you max out in 650b format, those are STILL really great wheels to consider and not really worry about the 2.1's. \n \nGo with the moots man. Theoretically you're going to be able to run the elwoods, horizon, gravelking SK; the biggest tires everyone wants to run. Everyone knows a moots, and years down the road if you ever want to dump that frame people know what to expect out of it and get maybe better resale.

Thanks for the quick responses, Smale Rider, seems like you're very knowledgeable about this stuff. I will have to call Moots tomorrow (if they're open), and see what they suggest as the largest 650b tire that will fit, and hopefully with room to spare. My Ridley cross bike is carbon, and I have done a fair bit of damage to the chainstays from riding in muddy/rocky conditions, and I'd hate for either of these bikes to suffer the same fate, although, since its Ti, I'm assuming its a moot point?

I agree that the Moots is the one to go with from a pure bike perspective, but, the Why's value is crazy good. You get carbon wheels ($2500), an Evoc Pro case ($500), and a carbon cockpit, with the Moots, I'll be going with Hed Belgium Plus hoops mounted to either DT240 or DT350 hubs, and will be running their stem/post, but aluminum bits in the cockpit, and it costs more... But I really do like supporting a local business, and they've been rad up to now. I've already gone into the LBS to get a fit for the Moots, so all I have to do is put the deposit down. 

I just want to make sure the bike is the right choice, and having never done bikepacking, I don't know what I don't know. Are there any drawbacks with either bike, or are they both pretty "future-proof". I know things change, but both offer thru-axles front and rear, with disc brakes. Either bike I choose will have electronic shifting and will be running tubeless. Sorry for the 1,000 questions, its just a large investment, and I want to be sure it won't be the wrong choice. 

Thanks again!

I did a bit more digging into comparable stuff. \n \nI know I have seen pictures of the Niner RLT running WTB horizon wheels. \nNiner website says their bikes clears up to 1.75 inch tire = 44.45mm \nThey are mounted on WTB frequency i23 rims and I also see some ci24. \n \nSo yeah I definitely think your moots can do the 47mm Horizon and Elwood, while keeping the internal rim diameter probably no bigger than 24. Unless that Niner RLT is doing some kind of frame voodoo that I'm not seeing. \n \nAs for your aluminum bits conundrum, those can always be switched out down the road. Really the only important bits is the stem and seat post for that bit of flex give. Carbon wheels is great too, those can always be bought next year

Thanks for the additional information! 

Yeah, I know I can always upgrade the bits around the frame, though its hard to upgrade the frame without buying a new one... Sounds like I should just listen to my gut and go with the local guys. I guess I'll go in tomorrow and finalize the details.

Thanks again for the input and knowledge, Smale Rider!

If, before then, anyone has any horror stories on either bike, please speak up now. 

Cheers!

I have two Moots....wanted to have bikes last for the rest of my life. Ordered my PsychloX before the Route came out...wished I could run bigger tire on rear, but mine work just fine. 41mm Knard is the biggest for rear. Run a 43 Soma Cazadero on front. Rohloff internal. S&S couplers...absolutely love this bike...Custom 46mm However I do have the option to run a longer chain, giving more clearance for bigger tires....

Great looking bike, Laeljon!

I hear that, I am hoping this bike can last a lifetime, which is another plus for the Moots, they have been around the industry a while and have been able to weather-the-storm of the cycling industry, and do most of that while building Ti. 

Is there anything else, other than the ability of running a wider tire, that you wish your Moots was capable of? Any short-comings or gotchas that you've experienced while owning them? Is it worth another $140 to add the rack eyelets? 

Thanks!

I just went with everything....this bike has become my go to bike. I have a Moots Zirkel with Rohloff. Notice that the shift cables were wearing grooves into the metal under BB, from movement of the suspension. Fixed that with some leather and foil. one dirty bike. rt

That build for sure looks like a good do anything bike. Have you actually used the S&S couplers? I will likely be traveling with my bike about once, maybe twice a year, but $1200 seems like a lot to add that feature. Just wondering if its worth the extra $? 

I'm also hoping that going with Di2 shifting, I won't have to worry about a whole lot of cable rub, guessing the main area of rub will be around the seat collar for the rear brake.

Also, have you used that bike for any bikepacking? Curious how comfortable it is over 100's of miles. I've done the triple bypass several times on my Tarmac, and the last 40 miles of the 126 are quite uncomfortable, just wondering how comfy these things are on longer rides. 

Lastly, whats up with the fenders? Was that from a 5 gallon bucket that you chopped up?  

Thanks!

LOL...Fenders are protein or Heed canisters, cheap and recyclable....Have not used couplers yet..plan to do a trip to Thailand in the future. Comfort is a personal deal, bike set-up, clothing, geometry. Ti definitely more compliant in the bumps.

I've been looking at Ti gravel frames for a while. Moots is an excellent builder, but you are paying a significant premium for the brand name. I think a very interesting alternative is No. 22's Drifter gravel bike. These frames are made in USA, by former Serotta craftspeople. Their CX variant won a blue ribbon at NAHBS 2016.The company website lists another well-known Boulder shop as their local rep. \n \nOther alternatives to consider include the Mosaic GT, Sage Barlow and, for significantly less money, a trio of TN built gravel frames from Lynskey, Carver, and Litespeed. I think that Carver used to have their Ti frames made in China, but switched to the Lynskey factory for better quality control. \n

Noted, I'm about to run out of protein powder, looks like I'll be making some custom fenders, lol! 

In regards to No.22, I looked at them, but any Ti manufacture that doesn't offer a lifetime warranty on the frame, just scares me a bit, also, they don't fit anything bigger than a 700x40c tire. They offer a 10 year warranty. Its the same reason I was turned off from Foundry, they only offer a 5 year warranty, and I could have gotten a killer deal, as they sell those through QBP, and I still get stuff from them at a good discount.

The Mosaic is really neat looking, but a frameset starts at ~$5200 and only accepts a 38c tire. I did talk to them, they're prototyping a new rig that will be a more "gravel grinder" feel, they said hoping to have it out this spring.  

I had never head of Sage, neat looking bike, frame looks very similar to the Why R+, when I built it up, it is cheaper than the Moots, but again, they only offer a 10 year warranty. 

If I were to go the TN route, I would go with the Why R+, they value between them and the other brands seems much better. 

Thanks for the additional information!

Well, pulled the trigger on the Moots, they'll be putting the order in tomorrow, looks like it will be 5-6 week turn-around, so come mid/late February we'll see if I have any buyers' remorse. I'm hoping not, as it feels like a giant weight has been lifted from my brains thinking mechanism. Now I need to finalize what wheels, hubs, and fit I want. 

Thanks again for everyone's input! 

Cheers!

My bike finally arrived last night, and I rode it into work today, this thing is amazing, well worth the wait. The 700x40 GravelKing tires are great on dirt, and roll exceptionally well on concrete. Also, the electronic shifting is extremely smooth, I added the new bluetooth connector, so I can see battery life and control shifting from my garmin or phone.

Cheers!    

Looks good.  I like the blue (purple?) accents.