Novice question: when considering position comfort on gravel bikes

28 replies · 2,828 views

SpartyinWI
9 posts
#1Oct 3, 2017, 9:57 PM
Are we mostly looking at stack? I am looking for my first gravel bike coming from mountain biking. The Salsa Warbird is positioned as a race bike, and perceived to be not as comfortable because of positioning. Its stack is 565mm for a 55cm bike and the Jamis Renegade is 565mm for a 54cm bike. Yet the Renegade is said to be a more comfortable bike. I have not had the opportunity to test any bike but the new Warbird aluminum looks appealing. Not a racer but looking for fun.

What is most important when looking for riding position comfort?

Thanks.

1
owly
328 posts
#2Oct 4, 2017, 6:33 AM
I'd say stack AND reach.

Coming from mtb it could be a bit tricky i.e. if you'd been riding a drop bar bike for some time, you'd have a general idea as to what stack and reach works for you.

The Renegade being more comfortable could come down to having a longer wheelbase perhaps / slacker angles / etc.
1
ljsmith
762 posts
#3Oct 4, 2017, 6:57 AM▲ Top
owly wrote:I'd say stack AND reach.

Coming from mtb it could be a bit tricky i.e. if you'd been riding a drop bar bike for some time, you'd have a general idea as to what stack and reach works for you.

The Renegade being more comfortable could come down to having a longer wheelbase perhaps / slacker angles / etc.

I agree with this. However stack isn't too big a deal other than aesthetically. You can always add spacers to get the bars higher up on a lower stack frame, but to many people (me included) it looks pretty bad if you have too many spacers. Theres also much more to comfort than just geometry. Keep in mind that since you don't have suspension, frame/fork material and design play a much larger role in comfort than they do on a mountain bike. Also max tire size matters a lot, regardless of all other factors 45mm tires will be more comfortable than 35mm tires.
3
Skldmark
164 posts
#4Oct 4, 2017, 3:48 PM
Be aware that the Salsa Warbird geometry chart contains many errors/mess-ups. An email said a corrected chart was in the works.
1
Zurichman
1,526 posts
#5Oct 4, 2017, 4:17 PMedited
SpartyinWI wrote:Are we mostly looking at stack? I am looking for my first gravel bike coming from mountain biking. The Salsa Warbird is positioned as a race bike, and perceived to be not as comfortable because of positioning. Its stack is 565mm for a 55cm bike and the Jamis Renegade is 565mm for a 54cm bike. Yet the Renegade is said to be a more comfortable bike. I have not had the opportunity to test any bike but the new Warbird aluminum looks appealing. Not a racer but looking for fun.

What is most important when looking for riding position comfort?

Thanks.

I wouldn't rule out the Raleigh Tamland or Roker if you can get it for the Corporate discount. I am the newbie here but from what I am reading longer chain stays and wheelbase of the bike is going to make it more comfortable. I have a Raleigh Tamland 1 and for sure it is a comfortable/fun bike.

Good luck
Zman
0
knl2stl
68 posts
#6Oct 4, 2017, 5:31 PM
The Warbird has a TT of 550. The Jamis has a TT of 551
The Warbird has a reach of 376. Jamis of 378
The Warbird has a stack of 567. Jamis 565

These bikes are (pretty much) the same size in every way, with maybe a 1 degree difference in headtube angle. (I am pretty much going from memory so sorry if I got some of the numbers wrong.) This is pretty standard geo for gravel/all/anyroad bikes. Look at Kona and Niner, the Tamland, and so on. Shorter reach and higher stack than race oriented road bikes.

If the Jamis is said to be more comfy the numbers suggest that you should not look at the geo but elsewhere.

BUT: You are coming off a mountain bike. I quess the issue is what kind? Something like a trail bike or a xc race bike. Did you find it comfortable?

I have a race oriented road bike and a race oriented xc mountain bike. These bikes had me rather low and forward. A style I was fine with. My all road / whatever bike (gravel was not really a thing yet) has a shorter reach and a higher stack than anything I ever had before (again, what mtb are you coming from since that could have an up in your face stack). The only discomfort that I ever experienced was that I was now sitting back and up further on a part of my sit bones that I was never on before. Took me a couple of years to break that part of my butt in, as I was always more forward on my pelvis for the last 10 bikes.

I would look at the TT, reach, and stack of the bikes you are considering. Try one out, note the position. Is it higher or lower than your mtb? Are you fine with sitting up further or lower?
1
SpartyinWI
9 posts
#7Oct 4, 2017, 9:02 PMedited
Thanks everyone. knl2stl, this is great information.

And I am not saying I would be uncomfortable on any of them, nor do I think it matters that I mountain bike. I am 48 and feel no issue with my back or bones crushing an aluminum hardtail on rocky single track (although with plus tires).

I was just wondering why the perception is that the Warbird may be uncomfortable due to its "race stance" but you never read that about the Renegade.

I just need to try them out. I will definitely get a carbon fork regardless if I choose an aluminum or steel frame. Can't wait.

Some other curious stuff for me - the Kona Private Jake is in their cyclocross section but they kind of advertise it as a do-it-all bike. I am in that $2,000 range.

Thanks.

0
knl2stl
68 posts
#8Oct 4, 2017, 10:49 PM
Cross bikes are the original do it all machines. I did single track as well as my first century on my steel 2001 Jamis Nova. I also have a 2014 steel Kona Rove.

There are so many gravel / all-anyroad bikes out there now for under 2000. Just give yourself some time to do some looking.

I was never uncomfortable with the move to a more upright position, other than my butt, but it did take some time for me to get used to the feeling of the riding position.

0
ljsmith
762 posts
#9Oct 5, 2017, 6:22 AM
SpartyinWI wrote:

I was just wondering why the perception is that the Warbird may be uncomfortable due to its "race stance" but you never read that about the Renegade.

It really just comes from the marketing of the bikes. Salsa markets the Warbird as a race bike, so the perception is that it is built for speed not comfort. Jamis markets the Renegade as a comfortable adventure bike, so the perception is that it is comfortable. But in reality half of what you read about bikes and components isn't reality, its just regurgitated marketing by reviewers. The best thing is to test ride bikes and decide for yourself what you like.
0
Marinerecon
65 posts
#10Oct 5, 2017, 8:12 AM
I had the same types of questions. We live in SW Wisconsin and both my wife and I own Cutthroats and use them on pavement, dirt roads, double track and heck, I even rode mine on parts of the Maah Daah Hey. Awesome bikes. \nIf you are ever close to Prairie du Chien come try one. \nNick
1
Zurichman
1,526 posts
#11Oct 5, 2017, 10:38 AM
SpartyinWI wrote:Thanks everyone. knl2stl, this is great information.

And I am not saying I would be uncomfortable on any of them, nor do I think it matters that I mountain bike. I am 48 and feel no issue with my back or bones crushing an aluminum hardtail on rocky single track (although with plus tires).

I was just wondering why the perception is that the Warbird may be uncomfortable due to its "race stance" but you never read that about the Renegade.

I just need to try them out. I will definitely get a carbon fork regardless if I choose an aluminum or steel frame. Can't wait.

Some other curious stuff for me - the Kona Private Jake is in their cyclocross section but they kind of advertise it as a do-it-all bike. I am in that $2,000 range.

Thanks.

One thing I think I know about the Warbird or think I have read. Since it is strictly considered a race bike it has no bosses/outlets to put on a rack or fenders if you so desire at a later time. At my end yes I want a light bike but at the same time if I decide to go bike camping with it I want those bosses on the bike.

Zman
0
Skldmark
164 posts
#12Oct 5, 2017, 1:00 PM
Zurichman wrote:

One thing I think I know about the Warbird or think I have read. Since it is strictly considered a race bike it has no bosses/outlets to put on a rack or fenders if you so desire at a later time. At my end yes I want a light bike but at the same time if I decide to go bike camping with it I want those bosses on the bike.

Zman
-sorta like a race car with a trailer hitch.
0
RideAlongside
7 posts
#13Oct 5, 2017, 1:08 PM
Skldmark wrote: -sorta like a race car with a trailer hitch.
\nOr a rally car with a decent sized trunk. Haha.
1
Zurichman
1,526 posts
#14Oct 5, 2017, 4:31 PMedited
RideAlongside wrote: Or a rally car with a decent sized trunk. Haha.

Hey that is what makes this old world go round. Us all liking different things. If we are all the same we would only have vanilla/chocolate/and strawberry ice cream. At my end I like having my cake and eating it too.(light bike with bosses) lol BTW I haven't found/bought it yet but I know/think it is out there.

Zman
1
RideAlongside
7 posts
#15Oct 5, 2017, 4:59 PM
Zurichman wrote:

Hey that is what makes this old world go round. Us all liking different things. If we are all the same we would only have vanilla/chocolate/and strawberry ice cream. At my end I like having my cake and eating it too.(light bike with bosses) lol BTW I haven't found/bought it yet but I know/think it is out there.

Zman

I completely agree. I love all the bosses and would love a long wheelbased, upright all road tourer, but also would like the aggressive positioning, lightweight, short chainstayed gravel race machine.
The Litespeed Gravel that I had on loan for a week was a great mix of the two.
I am hoping to put up my review and video of it soon. Its hard to spend time at the desk writing and video editing however when the weather is perfect for riding in San Diego right now. Glad I have the choice and ability to do either.
Let me know if you run across any other rally cars with trunks or racecars with tow hitches.
0
Zurichman
1,526 posts
#16Oct 5, 2017, 6:09 PM
RideAlongside wrote:

I completely agree. I love all the bosses and would love a long wheelbased, upright all road tourer, but also would like the aggressive positioning, lightweight, short chainstayed gravel race machine.
The Litespeed Gravel that I had on loan for a week was a great mix of the two.
I am hoping to put up my review and video of it soon. Its hard to spend time at the desk writing and video editing however when the weather is perfect for riding in San Diego right now. Glad I have the choice and ability to do either.
Let me know if you run across any other rally cars with trunks or racecars with tow hitches.

The 2 that are my radar is the Raleigh Roker Comp and the Jamis Renegade Expert. I did have the Diamondback Haanjo Trail Carbon on the list but if you read the note on my 3 bikes wish list one said he had a friend that had the Diamondback and had a warranty issue with it fork and they wouldn't stand behind it. I had a nasty scratch on my integrated seat post collar on my Tamland and they said take a pic along with bill of sale and they will try and help me out. I am hoping a killer deal on the Roker. At my end since I want to race/ride ultra long distances( 100 150 200 milers and across states 12-20 hrs) I want a lightweight bike with the long wheelbase and long chain stays.

Zman
0
SpartyinWI
9 posts
#17Oct 5, 2017, 9:29 PM
I had the same types of questions. We live in SW Wisconsin and both my wife and I own Cutthroats and use them on pavement, dirt roads, double track and heck, I even rode mine on parts of the Maah Daah Hey. Awesome bikes.
If you are ever close to Prairie du Chien come try one.
Nick

Thanks Nick. At the moment I ride John Muir on the mountain bike 90% of the time. Love it. Looking to expand with a gravel bike.
0
NoCoGreg
512 posts
#18Nov 6, 2017, 10:35 AM
A few additional thots on the different bikes...

Stiffness:
Below is a link with a detailed description of the pro's and con's to making a frame more/less stiff. Stiffer can be both better AND worse - so much depends upon the rider and intended use of the bike. In one of the reviews of the Roker it was criticized for having a flexible fork. If one isn't racing or planning on high speed descending then I would suggest more flex in the fork might be desirable for comfort. It's all a compromise...
http://www.cyclist.co.uk/in-depth/1310/the-cyclist-guide-to-frame-stiffness

Stack & Reach:
These play into the fit of the bike which also plays into handling and comfort. A long seat post will typically be quite flexible (more comfortable), but the steerer extension above the headset and the stem length will affect the feel and handling. For example, think of the stem as a lever arm used to steer the bike. A longer stem gives greater mechanical advantage (leverage) so steering will feel different. The longer stem will flex more which will add to comfort.

Wheelbase:
All other things being the same, longer will add to stability. Longer chain says will allow the frame to be designed for wider tires and/or larger stiffer chain stays. If you ride/race in an are where you'll encounter mud, clearance for large tires or mud might be a high priority. A good friend had to get his CF mountain bike repaired after mud ground away much of his seat and chain stays. This damage occurred during a single long distance mountain bike race.

I would suggest riding as many bikes as possible and a professional fit. My preference for gravel is to use the largest frame that fits. I "can" ride a 58cm bike but my preference for gravel is the next size up (61cm ish).

Happy shopping :-)
Greg

0
chas
1,305 posts
#19Nov 8, 2017, 4:03 PM
I’m curious to what you mean by comfortable?
I have a short wheelbase twitchy steel race bike that is super comfortable (with a thud buster). Its comfortable because it fits me very well.
With gravel bike, I have a super stiff one , but with the right seat post, tires, and tire pressure, it is as comfortable as the first bike – even though the frame stiffness is night and day.
I have a nice slack well damped longer wheelbase mountain bike that makes a great gravel bike, but the I have the handlebars positioned too low, and those mtb tires are just too heavy and slow for me, so I typically only gravel with it in the winter (when I want to go slower).
Anything with a good fit, and the right saddle/seat-post/tires/psi can be comfortable (with 40mm+ gravel tires)
0
imwjl
304 posts
#20Nov 8, 2017, 6:31 PM
This could be age showing except or some of the trails I ride and my favorite bikes. I find stack to be super important and more than I thought with drop bars. Over time I've come to dislike about all road bikes except the upright gramper models about as much as ended up disliking road biking - boring and dangerous. High stack bikes feel right whether my Fargo or our trail bikes with a fair amount o travel in front.

Again probably age, but tires are important for my comfort.

Big tires, high stack and wide bars help me ride with light hands and heavy feet.

Of course there are downsides to what I like or age. Most of my racing is to the toilet, and the only ones I might win would have to be downhill, some low level flight, and have berms unless it's a fellow old fart race. Even that downhill race would require some more old farts like me.

More sincere advice is try lots of stuff. For a season or two I enjoyed trying CX bikes, touring bikes, modern road bikes, and using our steel hard tail MTB as a gravel grinder. I knew the Fargo might be it but at first only had the gen 5 plus tire bike to test. Others were nice but felt too stretched out. One dear associate loves that stretched out as much as I don't so delay gratification and try lots of stuff is where it's at. It's super fun to know you've found the right bike kind of like when a guitar seems so right vs others around it.

0

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