Raleigh Tamland 1 questions

So I finally got y Tamland back from the LBS. As I was putting the carbon water bottle cages the UPS Lady dropped off my Lezyne alloy mini pump(great timing)

My info I have been road riding since 1992 with lots of ultra riding. With some stress in my life lately I am almost as high of a weight as I have ever been. 6 ft. 200 lb. My road bike is a Lemond Victoirre carbon/ti with the top tube being carbon an then 1/2 way down it is glued together with the entire bottom being ti. It's a triple and is a sweet climber. So yes the Tamland is my 1st double

test ride

I live kind of close to the mt. So a 9 mile ride to get to the mts. It's smooth as silk on the road and pikes up speed real quick on the downhills because of it's well. I also noticed that it tracks well when you stand on the climbs and is also responsive.

Finally make it to the mt. It's a 3 mile climb all @ 5-8%  It was all I could do to climb that mt. today with the bikes weight. The road was hard sandstone/limestone with lots of washboard ruts in it and lettle or no maintenance on it since it's a mountain road. On the descent the bike had plenty of brakes and it was kind of an eye opener for me since I haven't done this kind of riding for awhile.

So now my questions

What is the best bang for my buck to help make this bike a better climber, This doesn't/won't be a road bike for  me but will be a gravel riding/bike camping bike for me

1. Replace the front small cog. To what?
2. Replace the rear cassette. If it has 11x32 now what else is there out there and will the shifting be the same as it is now which is sweet?
3. I guess a wheel set. I am not a weight weenie but I do want a bike that I can climb with and it's not this bike right now although I do like the bike. I probably am tapped out money wise now with what else is going on in my life and some trips I have planned so wheels if that helps would be on for next year's agenda and or over the winter.
4. Does anybody put a triple on a road grinding bike and or with the compact crank on this bike does it have almost the same gear inches that yoou would get on a triple. How much would a triple cost? 

I know losing some weight on the motor will help some and I am working on that.

I now know I have to get use to the bike and have some major training and my Farmer's Daughter ride in 3 weeks is now just going to be survival and not hating my bike when it's over.

Any help advice will be gladly appreciated.
After today's ride I did get an eye opener as this gravel grinding is going to be harder than I thought it was going to be but then I luv a challenge.

Thanks
Zman

Since your 105 derailleur cannot handle larger than a 32t large cog you'll have to turn to other options. I think the least expensive route will be to chase down a 46/30t crankset. Fortunately your Tamland has "external bearings" which are very standard and you should be able to find a new crankset with a compatible bottom bracket.  Dropping from your current 34t small ring to a 30t ring will be about a 12% lower gear ratio. A slightly smaller jump than going from your 13t cassette cog to the 11t cog...

Here's a link to what I was thinking would work:
https://www.bike24.com/p2208747.html

There are other brands available as well.

Another route would be to go to a standard mountain double crankset.  With mountain cranks you'll be able to get MUCH lower gears but will sacrifice on the high end as the large chainring will be small by road standards.  Two problems:
1. If the crankset has an integrated bottom bracket axle you'll need spacers for the bottom bracket as mtb bottom brackets are a bit wider than road.  Any good bike shop will have these.
2. You'll need to make sure your FD will have enough "throw" to reach the outer ring.  The wider BB will push the chainrings out a couple mm.

The same issue would hold true if you went to a triple crankset - the throw to the outer chainring is farther so you need a FD which is designed for a road triple.  The new compact cranksets with 16t jumps along with 11spd cassettes provide much wider gearing which is sufficient for most bikes and applications. The result is that fewer and fewer people are using triples.

Other options such as going to the new mtb cassettes with 42t and larger cogs will be expensive for all the new parts.

One caution: Shimano 11spd road (105, Tiagra, etc) shifters do NOT work with the Shimano mountain rear derailleurs. This is because the cable pull is different.  So trying to mix and match road and mountain parts is not straight forward.  SRAM 10spd is compatible between road and mountain, but this is not the case with 11spd. 

For ideas on what will work for a triple setup, check out the touring bikes which are setup with triples.

Regards,
Greg

Zurichman wrote:
1. Replace the front small cog. To what?
2. Replace the rear cassette. If it has 11x32 now what else is there out there and will the shifting be the same as it is now which is sweet?
3. I guess a wheel set. I am not a weight weenie but I do want a bike that I can climb with and it's not this bike right now although I do like the bike. I probably am tapped out money wise now with what else is going on in my life and some trips I have planned so wheels if that helps would be on for next year's agenda and or over the winter.
4. Does anybody put a triple on a road grinding bike and or with the compact crank on this bike does it have almost the same gear inches that yoou would get on a triple. How much would a triple cost? 

1) You can only go one tooth smaller to a 33 by buying a TA Specialities ring. To go smaller requires switching to a crank with a different bolt circle. See the 46/32 Crankset or Old Guy's thread. Probably $300.

2) You could switch to a cassette with a 36 tooth big cog and it would probably still shift OK. It's out spec but people have been pushing 36s on max-32t derailleurs for a while. You could improve things a little with a 9 speed mountain derailleur or one of the 'trekking' models which should have a longer b-knuckle than the 105. Any bigger and you'd need a Wolftooth Roadlink to move the derailleur further away from the cogs. 

3) Yeah, you could definitely save some weight here. Switching from the stock rims to DT 460s saves you 200g right there, and then at least go to butted spokes. Less spokes (on a different hubset) or alloy nipples are options too if you're OK with the tradeoffs. Plus you can switch to tubeless if you like. OEM tires are usually heavier than aftermarket so that might be a good place to start, but I'd pull one of the stock tires off and weigh it first. $150 for tires? A lot more for wheels.

4) With the range of 11 speed cassettes triples just aren't that popular anymore. Dropping triples means one less shifter to make and stock, and from a technical standpoint it's a little easier to engineer the front derailleur to deal with only one shift. But set up right for the right conditions than can be pretty great. You'd need a new crank and left shifter at a minimum and probably a front derailleur too.

I'm going to guess that seat post is pretty clunky and that's an easy thing to upgrade.

It all comes down to power to total weight, so dropping 2 pounds off of 225 pounds of bike and rider will save you less than 1%. Training and losing 2 pounds off your body will give you the same effect, plus the bonus of any extra power gains from your training.

drwelby wrote:

1) You can only go one tooth smaller to a 33 by buying a TA Specialities ring. To go smaller requires switching to a crank with a different bolt circle. See the 46/32 Crankset or Old Guy's thread. Probably $300.

2) You could switch to a cassette with a 36 tooth big cog and it would probably still shift OK. It's out spec but people have been pushing 36s on max-32t derailleurs for a while. You could improve things a little with a 9 speed mountain derailleur or one of the 'trekking' models which should have a longer b-knuckle than the 105. Any bigger and you'd need a Wolftooth Roadlink to move the derailleur further away from the cogs. 

3) Yeah, you could definitely save some weight here. Switching from the stock rims to DT 460s saves you 200g right there, and then at least go to butted spokes. Less spokes (on a different hubset) or alloy nipples are options too if you're OK with the tradeoffs. Plus you can switch to tubeless if you like. OEM tires are usually heavier than aftermarket so that might be a good place to start, but I'd pull one of the stock tires off and weigh it first. $150 for tires? A lot more for wheels.

4) With the range of 11 speed cassettes triples just aren't that popular anymore. Dropping triples means one less shifter to make and stock, and from a technical standpoint it's a little easier to engineer the front derailleur to deal with only one shift. But set up right for the right conditions than can be pretty great. You'd need a new crank and left shifter at a minimum and probably a front derailleur too.

I'm going to guess that seat post is pretty clunky and that's an easy thing to upgrade.

It all comes down to power to total weight, so dropping 2 pounds off of 225 pounds of bike and rider will save you less than 1%. Training and losing 2 pounds off your body will give you the same effect, plus the bonus of any extra power gains from your training.

Thanks for this reply DrWelby. I hate to say this but I guess us Americans want everything in an instant/right now and I didn't think I was in that category. What I know is that I started this endeavor about 2 weeks ago weighing 205 lb. and this morning I weighed 198.6 so yes the weight is going away. A year ago before all the stress came into my life I weighed 185 lbs and ideally I would luv to get down to 180 lbs. and stay there this time.  I guess I just got a wake up call yesterday on that mt. I guess I could say that I am pretty much a natural athlete and can do pretty much anything I want to out on the road and in a month and a half I plan on riding 300 miles in a 24 hr. ride and then the end of July climbing Pikes Peak with some friends.

I would be kidding myself if I didn't say that I want to successful in what I consider a new frontier or style of cycling for me. I guess it's just going to take some plain ole hard work and I might just wait to do any changes until I see how much my fitness level improve. I guess I also became concerned/scared yesterday with that climb as I didn't have my bike weighed down with a frame bag or other things I might have on a longer gravel grinding ride.

Zman

NoCoGreg wrote:Since your 105 derailleur cannot handle larger than a 32t large cog you'll have to turn to other options. I think the least expensive route will be to chase down a 46/30t crankset. Fortunately your Tamland has "external bearings" which are very standard and you should be able to find a new crankset with a compatible bottom bracket.  Dropping from your current 34t small ring to a 30t ring will be about a 12% lower gear ratio. A slightly smaller jump than going from your 13t cassette cog to the 11t cog...

Here's a link to what I was thinking would work:
https://www.bike24.com/p2208747.html

There are other brands available as well.

Another route would be to go to a standard mountain double crankset.  With mountain cranks you'll be able to get MUCH lower gears but will sacrifice on the high end as the large chainring will be small by road standards.  Two problems:
1. If the crankset has an integrated bottom bracket axle you'll need spacers for the bottom bracket as mtb bottom brackets are a bit wider than road.  Any good bike shop will have these.
2. You'll need to make sure your FD will have enough "throw" to reach the outer ring.  The wider BB will push the chainrings out a couple mm.

The same issue would hold true if you went to a triple crankset - the throw to the outer chainring is farther so you need a FD which is designed for a road triple.  The new compact cranksets with 16t jumps along with 11spd cassettes provide much wider gearing which is sufficient for most bikes and applications. The result is that fewer and fewer people are using triples.

Other options such as going to the new mtb cassettes with 42t and larger cogs will be expensive for all the new parts.

One caution: Shimano 11spd road (105, Tiagra, etc) shifters do NOT work with the Shimano mountain rear derailleurs. This is because the cable pull is different.  So trying to mix and match road and mountain parts is not straight forward.  SRAM 10spd is compatible between road and mountain, but this is not the case with 11spd. 

For ideas on what will work for a triple setup, check out the touring bikes which are setup with triples.

Regards,
Greg

Thanks Greg(NoCoGreg) for this info. After reading DrWelby's post I think I am going to wait a month or so and see how much my fitness level improves. The crank option that you posted though looks sweet if I can't still climb well after that time though. Not being a bike techy though do I still have to find a different bottom bracket that will match/work with that crank or will my current bottom bracket work?

Thanks
Zman

Zman are you running tubes or tubeless?  I found going  tubeless to add some performance benefits at very little cost. Lowers rotating weight a little.  

I'm pretty sure his bike came with 46/36 chainrings. The best money you could spend right now (and likely the least amount) is a 34T chainring. They're $20 or less on eBay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shimano-Ultegra-6800-34t-110mm-11-Speed-Chainring-for-34-50t-/122398783631?hash=item1c7f89388f:g:~I8AAOSwWxNYrzY7

Spec on the 2016 and 2017 says it's already a 34.

Neither year had tubeless ready rims either.

Bike24 is sold out on the FSA cranks, but I see them listed on eBay. It's worth noting that they use their own unique bolt circle so finding replacements rings could be a pain at some point.

I'd point your budget on things like getting the right seat, good fit, food/water setup dialed, and those things require putting in some miles. I could see making some dumb mistakes, like buying a lightweight zero-offset seatpost and then realizing you can't push your Brooks saddle far back enough.

drwelby wrote:Spec on the 2016 and 2017 says it's already a 34.

Neither year had tubeless ready rims either.

Bike24 is sold out on the FSA cranks, but I see them listed on eBay. It's worth noting that they use their own unique bolt circle so finding replacements rings could be a pain at some point.

I'd point your budget on things like getting the right seat, good fit, food/water setup dialed, and those things require putting in some miles. I could see making some dumb mistakes, like buying a lightweight zero-offset seatpost and then realizing you can't push your Brooks saddle far back enough.

Oops you're right. I was looking at the Tamland 2.

But are you sure they aren't tubeless ready? My 2017 Tamland 1 is, and it looks like it has the same wheels as the 2016.

shoota wrote:

But are you sure they aren't tubeless ready? My 2017 Tamland 1 is, and it looks like it has the same wheels as the 2016.

Good catch! I was looking at the U28 which must be an older version of the rim. Everything says the U28 TL is tubeless ready. I'm guessing that's what TL stands for, duh.

2016 has Weinman Impules wheels, good wheels by the way, I have them on my Willard and they are Tubeless \nU28 is Latest Raleigh Wheelset on 2017 bikes and is also TL \n

And weigh a metric sh*t-ton.

They haven't slowed me down but I don't race

Zurichman wrote:

Thanks Greg(NoCoGreg) for this info. After reading DrWelby's post I think I am going to wait a month or so and see how much my fitness level improves. The crank option that you posted though looks sweet if I can't still climb well after that time though. Not being a bike techy though do I still have to find a different bottom bracket that will match/work with that crank or will my current bottom bracket work?

Thanks
Zman

Yes, the new crankset would also need a compatible bottom bracket.  Raleigh doesn't spec the maker of the crankset nor bottom bracket so my guess is it's a no-name maker from China.  It might be compatible with Shimano or SRAM or neither,  you'd have to go to a local bike shop (LBS) to get a determination.

In any case, a bottom bracket should cost around $15 or $20 for that crankset.

IMHO trying to take pounds off a bike is good exercise for one's wallet. It quickly becomes VERY expensive.  As was previously pointed out, taking a pound or two off the weight of you, the bike, and your gear, is not going to make a big difference.  Below is my list lowest cost places to look to remove weight, but before starting on this go to Harbor Freight and get an inexpensive digital luggage scale which measures down to single grams so you can measure the weight of your current parts before deciding to spend the money on weight loss:
- Tires can be VERY heavy. Light fast gravel tires are 350 to 400 grams. Heavy duty tires can be 700+ grams so one could lose 1/2 to a full pound per tire.
- Tubes - high performance tubes can save weight.  Latex tubes are very light, very expensive and very fragile & problematic.  I would suggest tubeless or good quality light weight butyl (rubber) tubes.  Thick heavy tubes are less prone to flats.

Better tires and tubes roll MUCH faster and will help a lot while climbing.

If you google weightweenies you'll find ton's of info on taking weight off a bike. But to put things into perspective, I could lose an entire bike if I just got in better shape and ate healthier.  I am NOT an advocate for spending $$$ to take weight off bikes unless one has lots of $$$.

Warning about Triple cranksets:
Before considering a triple crankset confirm your shifter and front derailleur are compatible with a triple.  I have not seen any Shimano 11-speed triple shifters so your system may only be compatible with double cranks.  SRAM dropped triple front shifting systems long ago.  

Shimano does have 10spd triple shifters & derailleurs, but the 10spd and 11spd parts are completely incompatible. (Different cable pull for shifters and brakes, etc etc).

So IMHO the least expensive option to get lower gears will be to find a friend with an 11x36 cassette and seeing if that will work.  Be careful though, if your bike does shift onto the 36, only test this in the small ring as your chain might be too short for a big/big combination. I've seen derailleur cages bent into the rear wheel spokes when this happens.

Next least costly will be an inexpensive 46/30 crankset and bottom bracket.  The OldGuy thread mentioned above was a more difficult situation because his bike has an obscure bottom bracket while your bike has a very common threaded bottom bracket with external bearings.

Moving to the extremely large cassette cogs (aka the Wolftooth route mentioned by drwelby) is going to be expensive and actually increase the weight of your bike by a bit (lager cogs, longer chain).

Cheers,
Greg

NoCoGreg wrote:
Yes, the new crankset would also need a compatible bottom bracket.  Raleigh doesn't spec the maker of the crankset nor bottom bracket so my guess is it's a no-name maker from China.  It might be compatible with Shimano or SRAM or neither,  you'd have to go to a local bike shop (LBS) to get a determination.
...
Next least costly will be an inexpensive 46/30 crankset and bottom bracket.  The OldGuy thread mentioned above was a more difficult situation because his bike has an obscure bottom bracket while your bike has a very common threaded bottom bracket with external bearings.

The Trek bottom bracket is a proprietary shell, but uses a common bearing standard. Because Trek integrated the bearing cups to be part of the shell that means you can't use a kludgey underdesigned adaptor bearing to fit the larger 30mm spindle into a shell it was never designed for. But in the case of the Tamland you can't run a BB30 either because the BSA shell is where the bearings need to be. So you're in the same boat for running a 2-piece crank as the Trek: Sugino OX601D or Shimano Metrea.

The Tamland will take square taper cranks that the Trek won't, so that opens up a bunch of other possibilities, such as the FSA Tempo linked above, Middleburn backstock, White Industries, IRD Defiant, and all the TA Cyclotourist clones. 

Greg's points have me agreeing that triples aren't a road worth going down unless you can find someone with a older 3x10 group that wants to trade and is capable of doing the labor. And for that to be worth it you'd have to really know what gears you use because I feel it's only worth if want to have things super-optimized. And most people will say that I'm crazy to recommend it anyway.

Not that I'm a triple fan but it would be much easier (and cheaper) to get a triple crank and use a bar end shifter to shift it (friction) and just use your current STI lever as a brake only lever.

drwelby wrote:But in the case of the Tamland you can't run a BB30 either because the BSA shell is where the bearings need to be. So you're in the same boat for running a 2-piece crank as the Trek: Sugino OX601D or Shimano Metrea.

This feels like deja vu!

True that an actual BB30 crank won't fit, but a BB386 will fit fine It's just the same 30mm spindle, but a bit longer. That's actually how several of Diamondback's Haanjos are specced. BB386 crank in a threaded/BSA bottom bracket. The only difference is that those threaded bearings have a 30mm ID instead of the 24mm ID (Shimano) 22/24mm ID (GXP) that we're used to. FSA makes the most cost effective one (that I know of) and Rotor and RaceFace make them as well in the $50-60 range. They do require a larger wrench to install them because they have a larger shell.


Being able to use a BB386 crank in a BSA/threaded shell opens up a LOT of possibilities. There's the new FSA 46/30 crank that will fit. Rotor has the new 46/30 spider that can go on a 3D+/3D30/3DF crank, but you're getting into a bit of money at that point. SRAM calls everything with a 30mm spindle, but their pretty looking Force cranks are actually BB386 while their reds are a 'real' BB30. There has got to be some sort of direct mount solution coming down the pipeline shortly for such a popular crank.

I have seen (and tried) the 11-36 in a Shimano RD that was supposed to max out at 32 work just fine. I also have a Roadlink on one bike and a Shimano 11-40 cassette. Once the derailleur hanger was perfectly aligned, the shifting was/is great. I think all in for a chain, 11-40 cassette and Roadlink was in the neighborhood of $125. That's still way cheaper than any new crank and BB combo.

Good info! One of these days I'll be 100% caught up with all the available standards...

shoota wrote:Not that I'm a triple fan but it would be much easier (and cheaper) to get a triple crank and use a bar end shifter to shift it (friction) and just use your current STI lever as a brake only lever.

Should you decide to go this route, see if there is a bike co-op or similar non-profit in your area as these places specialize in used parts and you might find a single bar-end shifter for cheap.  So long as the bar end shifter is not indexed it'll work with absolutely any front derailleur.  I've got this setup on several bikes.

Mtb 10spd double cranksets will get you low gears at the expense of the high end.  Yes 10spd cranksets work fine with 11spd systems and typically are less expensive than 11spd.  The largest standard crankset I've seen is a SRAM 42/28 which will get you much lower gears than your current 50/34 (16% lower 1st gear and also top gear).  You'll need the English threaded GXP bottom bracket for your bike.
https://www.niagaracycle.com/categories/crankset-sram-x5-175x42-28-gxp-bk-10s2014-no-bb

Here's a bottom bracket which I believe will work but you'll want to confirm.  Your bike most likely is 68mm English thread.
https://www.niagaracycle.com/categories/sram-bottom-bracket-gxp-team-cups-english-73-68mm

I only used NiagaraCycle's links as I quickly found the parts at their site for what seem to be fairly good prices. UniversalCycles.com also has this.  All in all the new crankset and BB will be about $125 if you or a friend can do the installation. 

Also check the length of your crankarms - especially if you have issues with your toe hitting (overlapping) the front wheel at low speed.  The size is usually stamped somewhere on the arm.  If there isn't a stamp, the measure from center of the bottom bracket axle to the center of the pedal axle. Cranks are available in 170mm, 172.5mm (sometimes), and 175mm. There's lots of religion on the right size. Generally bikes that are 56cm and larger get the 175mm cranks. The smallest bikes (52cm and below) will usually get 170mm.  Of course manufacturers and shops will sometimes change this...

drwelby wrote:Good info! One of these days I'll be 100% caught up with all the available standards...

I don't think we'll ever be. I had a draft saved for the 'other' thread on crank spindle lengths, but that thread quickly devolved.