That fine line between Mountain biking and Gravel biking

bobknh wrote:My $.02 -- First, I'm a roadie and ride mostly on town maintained dirt and gravel roads in southern NH. So I'm speaking from the point of view of a mtb novice. None the less, I live in an area where mountain biking is king, and have discussed this topic ad-nauseum with the experts in my trail association. The general opinion is the best bike where tires meet single track, is a fully suspended 29r. After considering many fat and semi-fat alternatives, I've decided to buy a fully suspended 29r when I return to NH from my SC winter residence. "Horses for courses". 

Agreed on this, but sometimes its nice to ride your bike to the trail, versus having to drive to ride. I also have a 29er XC bike, but it is a bit of a pain to drive ~30-75 minutes to go ride the thing. Typically, I'll plan a weekend in Fruita or Moab to ride this bike, and every-once in a while, I'll drive it to the front range to ride, but riding that bike on the pavement will destroy the tires much too quickly to ride to the trail.

I recently had a situation, where I wanted to only bring one bike for a trip, and I choose my "gravel" bike, as I could do some road riding, as well as hit up some local single track.

Cheers,
Greg

I know that WTB's website lists bikes that can take the 700 and 650b wheels and tires but they probably are not considering pedal strike. The roker is on that site My feeling is as long as you are not going over huge rocks it will not be a problem with pedal strike.  Yes, super rough trails sounds like it could be an issue I think there needs to be a better definition of just what single-track and rough is.  For most wider trails that don't have drops and jumps even if they have rocks it seems as if a wider 650 b tire on strong wheels would be fine.

mr_slow wrote:

Agreed on this, but sometimes its nice to ride your bike to the trail, versus having to drive to ride. I also have a 29er XC bike, but it is a bit of a pain to drive ~30-75 minutes to go ride the thing. Typically, I'll plan a weekend in Fruita or Moab to ride this bike, and every-once in a while, I'll drive it to the front range to ride, but riding that bike on the pavement will destroy the tires much too quickly to ride to the trail.

I recently had a situation, where I wanted to only bring one bike for a trip, and I choose my "gravel" bike, as I could do some road riding, as well as hit up some local single track.

Cheers,
Greg

I agree with you - nice to have one bike to do it all. Fortunately, I live on a dead end dirt road. The end of the road connects to a single and double track trail system with many miles of great mountain biking. I've toyed with the idea of an inexpensive monster cross that can take a 29r size tire, but for me, given both my age and lack of skill, I'm better of with a fully suspended 29r. I may still go with 27.5+ hard tail with 3" tires though. I like a lighter weight bike and less complexity. The Salsa Timberjack may be a perfect choice -- it can run either 27.5+, or 29r and is reasonably priced.

mgef2000 wrote: Considering a 650b wheelset with 2.1 tires to go in the roker and then a new chainring and possibly a new cassette.  This gives me one bike that could almost do it all...... At least I think?  I like trails better than road.

Your opinions greatly appreciated on how much a gravel bike can do off road with large tires and strong wheels.

Thanks 

Well that is basically a drop bar mountain bike.  Biggest draw back is probably the width of the handle bars compared to a mountain bike.  I tend to need to be in the drops on my cross bike to get good handling, but its still not as easy to ride single track as a real mountain bike (although I can go a little faster as it is lighter and has larger rolling diameter.

Does the bike take fat 650b tires?  One thing I sometimes do is just swap out the front tire, as the size of that makes a bigger difference in handling than the rear tire.  Ya need to keep the rolling diameter pretty close if you do this though.

mr_slow wrote:

One question for you, what was the reason for moving to the 650's for commuting? I commute 4-5 days a week, and have stopped using my 23mm commuter for this, as my Moots rides so much smoother. But, I've been using 700c x 40-44mm tires for this, and I'm wondering if you noticed faster rolling with the 650's? Most of my commute is on pavement (85-95%), so I don't need a crazy aggressive tread for this duty.

Thanks,
Greg

I commute on 28mm, 32mm, 40mm, and sometimes 60mm, lol.

I gave up on 23mm long ago although roadies used to look at me funny and ask how large my 28mm tires were.  Well, there was a time when that was pretty oversized!

For me, 700x32 works best in the summer when I am strong and fast.  In the winter, 700x40 works better (when I am a little slower and the roads are wetter and full of gunk).

I have use 650bx60mm tires - these happen to be some of the fastest rolling tires on the market (as fast or faster than my 23mm race tires).  However they feel infinitely faster than the OEM 650b tires that came on that bike.  650b can be fast  with the proper construction and design - if you are not doing hill climbs and jack rabbit starts from the light.

All and all, the bigger tires are a little slower due to the rotating mass, but that doesn't make much difference in a commute.

Drop Bar Mountain bike would be perfect as it is also still a gravel/road bike with the 700 tires.

Yes... According to the WTB site it will be compatible with 650b's and my understanding is 2.0 in the rear and 2.1 up front.

No drops or jumps for me.  Just bigger stronger wheels and tires for rougher terrain.
The bar is flared and not a typical road drop bar and if need be there are dirt drop bars which are made just for this type of riding.

mgef2000 wrote:Drop Bar Mountain bike would be perfect as it is also still a gravel/road bike with the 700 tires.

Yes... According to the WTB site it will be compatible with 650b's and my understanding is 2.0 in the rear and 2.1 up front.

No drops or jumps for me.  Just bigger stronger wheels and tires for rougher terrain.
The bar is flared and not a typical road drop bar and if need be there are dirt drop bars which are made just for this type of riding.

I've just re-read all the posts in this thread. What I realize, is this subject is more about the rider, than about the bike. On the one hand, you have highly skilled off road riders, who welcome the challenge of riding anywhere on the same bike. In this category I think you'll find true adventure cyclists who venture of with minimalist camping equipment strapped to their bike. They ride wherever the road or trail take them. Or... retro grouches like Paul of Pauls components who love the simplicity and reliability of un-suspended monster cross bikes. My hat's off to these intrepid riders. OTOH, you have old road weenies like myself -- with too many scars from crashes, broken bones, concussions earned over many years of racing. I'll get a real mountain bike whenever I venture to far off pavement.

Thanks for the response... Don't blame you for that.... Try to stay in one piece for gosh sakes!

squak wrote:

If you're a conservative rider who only rides easy trails I think the benefits of slightly wider tires on a 650b wheelset will be nominal and not worth the expense/hassle.  Save your money and just run the widest 700c tires you can fit on the Roker.  Something like the WTB Riddler 45c would be great on mellow singletrack.  If you really want to use the Roker as a gravel/mountain bike you'd probably get more benefit from adding a dropper seatpost.

Squak can you tell me what a dropper seatpost is? I am clueless in Newburg Pa. I do know that I need 25 mm setback for my Roker to work with my Brooks Imperial saddle right now.

Zman

Zman - you don't mountain bike, do ya?  Its the latest gotta have thing for mountain bikers.  Press a button, and the seat post drops all the way down to get out of your way for those knarly down hill streaks.  Press the button to pop it back into place for flats and climbing.

Hows that Roker doing?  Do they fit true to size?  I see the comp is selling from $1500 to $2000 around the web.  Geeze - that is a steel.  I'm lusting after the "race" (8kg, Rival Force), but looks like that was only sold in the UK...

Have a 29er hardtail and use it occaisionally.... A lot heavier than the roker and do I really need it for what I do?   

I like the challenge on being on most trails with the Roker..... faster and I'm not ever going to do anything too crazy anyway.... and it is easier to climb etc....

Great bike.... Like the versatility of it.  Can fit a pretty big tire..

May swap out front chainring to 36-38 if I decide to use it more as mtn bike and then go with the 650b for quick wheel swap.

Or,, do I get the mtn bike that is lighter and have a rear drop out of 142x12 so I can basically swap all kinds of wheelsets.  Plus bike with that alignment would be great.. Something like karate monkey or salsa hardtail.  Too many options. 

chas wrote:

I commute on 28mm, 32mm, 40mm, and sometimes 60mm, lol.

I gave up on 23mm long ago although roadies used to look at me funny and ask how large my 28mm tires were.  Well, there was a time when that was pretty oversized!

For me, 700x32 works best in the summer when I am strong and fast.  In the winter, 700x40 works better (when I am a little slower and the roads are wetter and full of gunk).

I have use 650bx60mm tires - these happen to be some of the fastest rolling tires on the market (as fast or faster than my 23mm race tires).  However they feel infinitely faster than the OEM 650b tires that came on that bike.  650b can be fast  with the proper construction and design - if you are not doing hill climbs and jack rabbit starts from the light.

All and all, the bigger tires are a little slower due to the rotating mass, but that doesn't make much difference in a commute.

Exactly which 650B x 60mm are faster than which 23mm race tires, and on what kind of terrain are we talking here?
I kinda sorta find that hard to believe.
I've been commuting on Byways which are 650B x 47 and they feel pretty sluggish when compared to any road tires. Sure, it could also be me to some degree as I'm not at the top of my game right now, but still they are bigger, heavier and definitely less aero.

I'm not a commuter.  I'm really trying to decide between buying a lighter weight hardtail for trails or saving some money and adding a 650b wheelset with 2.1 or so tires for trail riding.  No drops or jumps.

It depends on the trails I guess and how fast you want to go/how much fun you want to have. If its single track I recommend a hard tail, no matter if there are jumps or not. If it's more like double track and it's fairly smooth, yes just get the wheels. The gravel bike with wider wheels will get through most stuff, but you won't be able to go as fast and have as much control, and could get sketchy at times. To me it's not just the tires that make a mountain bike the better choice for rough terrain, but the riding position and the ergonomics. Even with flared bars it's not the same as flat bars \nJust my 2 cents

Hi thanks for the response.

It is interesting what the real definition of singletrack is.  I have seen double track that is more rocky and rooty than some of the smooth singletrack.  I like some technical stuff but it depends.  Super twisty and turny stuff with lots of roots and rocks for sure a hardtail.  But if straighter with rocks and some picking of lines (not so much that it would destroy the bike- like huge rocks) I prefer the gravel bike or something like it.  It makes it fun and challenging I guess.  Cross bikes are a bit more racy and you are more stretched out.

Just curious how much more I could do with 2.1 650b tires vs 40c tires 700.

Thanks again. 

mgef2000 wrote:Hi thanks for the response.

Just curious how much more I could do with 2.1 650b tires vs 40c tires 700.

Thanks again. 

I agree - easy single track is more fun to me on a grave/CX bike.  

Tire wise - its mostly tire pressure related for me.  I use either 40mm or 60mm.  60's are heavier for sure, but I use about 2/3 of the tire pressure, and of course can hit a pretty big rock or root without bottoming out with the bigger tire.

ti473 wrote:

Exactly which 650B x 60mm are faster than which 23mm race tires, and on what kind of terrain are we talking here?
I kinda sorta find that hard to believe.
I've been commuting on Byways which are 650B x 47 and they feel pretty sluggish when compared to any road tires. Sure, it could also be me to some degree as I'm not at the top of my game right now, but still they are bigger, heavier and definitely less aero.

Not always faster, but faster rolling (i.e. rolling resistance)

I know, I found their speed hard to believe too.  And no doubt, my large tire/wheel combos accelerate sluggishly due to the weight.  And, on my long gravel rides (long rolling hills, no stop signs/lights) at 15mph, weight & aero makes less of a difference.  But on a fast road ride at 20-25mph, the weight and aero holds them back.  Not so much on a long gravel ride. 

So, the 60mm tires are not always faster.  They are slower on high speed road rides, realistically about the same on rolling gravel rides, and very fast on steady state sand, or rough gravel/asphalt.

Here are some of 

My tires and their rolling resistance at 18mph:
12 watts 60mm Schwalbe S-One tubeless.
14.9 watts Michilin Pro4
17.2 watts Conti 4 season
19.3 watts Conti gatorskins.

It is strange riding 60mm tire at an easy 15mph paved and putting out the same effort as a race tire.  

with a rail/trail of crushed limestone or very course asphalt - these 60mm tires are as fast or faster than anything I have: Skinny road tires, 32mm slicks, or fast 40mm gravel tires.

Every day for me, because I use it for commuting. But I’ve even used it as an alternative to my mountain bike on hard trails on one occasion, in order to see what it could do.

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