I alluded to this question in an earlier discussion of an upgrade to eTap HRD hydraulic brakes. It all goes back to a custom steel gravel frame scheduled to be built in Aug. I'd like to use my eTap Wifli shifters and der's from my old bike. The eTap shifters however, are non hydraulic. SRAM does make an eTap hydraulic shifters but they are expensive and hard to find. I'm leaning towards using my old eTap shifters with cable actuated brake calipers. The 2 top candidates for me are Paul's Klampers which are a refined and carefully perfected bullet proof mechanical caliper design made in the USA, and TRP Hy/RD which are cable actuated hydraulic brakes with the fluid reservoir in the caliper. Both systems cost and weigh about the same, are easy to install, adjust, and are compatible with my eTap shifters. While the Klampers look like old style BB 7's, their innards are carefully refined and improved with better quality parts, and are very thoroughly tested by Paul and his crew. The Hy/RD's promise the braking and modulation of an hydraulic system. Any thoughts or opinions?
It's going to be hard to find people with real-world experience on the newer Paul Klampers. Paul makes nice stuff though.
The Hy/Rd's can work great. My experience with them required quite a bit of tinkering before they were impressive. I think between topping off the fluid (5 minute job with no special tools and basic TRP/Shimano oil), using a different pad (this was two years ago and I don't know what they come with now), compressionless housing (some people on this board keep saying compressionless cables), and a good rotor, and they were at least 90% as good as the 685 brakes on another bike.
I don't know how many of those steps were necessary though. It was really when I switched pads to whatever TRP customer support sent me that I noticed the most difference. Maybe those are what they come with now? I don't have that bike anymore to check which pads they were. They don't have any other TRP branded pads on their site now, so I'm hoping what they sent me a long time ago is what's currently included. I even tried two other TruckerCo pads without any improvement. I never did throw a Shimano pad in there to try....not sure why.
The TRP14 standard rotor isn't that great, so grab something else if you do go with Hy/Rd's. I have had two sets of TRP14 rotors used between 3 different bikes and their braking wasn't as good as the TRP29 rotor. Or a Shimano SLX rotor. Or Icetech rotor. Or Hayes Mud Cutter rotor.
TRP has excellent customer service and technical help, so I wound find it very hard to believe they aren't speccing better brake pads by now. Just a guess though. Let us know what you find. I would think you would have to at least try the cable actuated thing before dropping so much freaking money on the etap hydraulic levers/calipers.
Pauls are single piston so they bend the rotor into one side, just like bb7s. That gives me rotor-truing nightmare flashbacks.
I have 4-5k miles on Hy/Rds and thought they were great. I replaced them with Spyres and like them more. Mechanical's easier for me to deal with, they're dual piston, and there's a little dust cover thing that can help protect the insides parts from winter corrosion. They're also a 3rd of the price as the Klampers and not so klunky.
dangle wrote:It's going to be hard to find people with real-world experience on the newer Paul Klampers. Paul makes nice stuff though.
The Hy/Rd's can work great. My experience with them required quite a bit of tinkering before they were impressive. I think between topping off the fluid (5 minute job with no special tools and basic TRP/Shimano oil), using a different pad (this was two years ago and I don't know what they come with now), compressionless housing (some people on this board keep saying compressionless cables), and a good rotor, and they were at least 90% as good as the 685 brakes on another bike.
I don't know how many of those steps were necessary though. It was really when I switched pads to whatever TRP customer support sent me that I noticed the most difference. Maybe those are what they come with now? I don't have that bike anymore to check which pads they were. They don't have any other TRP branded pads on their site now, so I'm hoping what they sent me a long time ago is what's currently included. I even tried two other TruckerCo pads without any improvement. I never did throw a Shimano pad in there to try....not sure why.
The TRP14 standard rotor isn't that great, so grab something else if you do go with Hy/Rd's. I have had two sets of TRP14 rotors used between 3 different bikes and their braking wasn't as good as the TRP29 rotor. Or a Shimano SLX rotor. Or Icetech rotor. Or Hayes Mud Cutter rotor.
TRP has excellent customer service and technical help, so I wound find it very hard to believe they aren't speccing better brake pads by now. Just a guess though. Let us know what you find. I would think you would have to at least try the cable actuated thing before dropping so much freaking money on the etap hydraulic levers/calipers.
Dangle - thanks - very, very useful info. Sounds like the HY/RD's can be a good choice, provided you upgrade the pads and the rotors. I'm a long time Paul's customer. They do make very good stuff. I've never been disappointed with (thumbies, Minimoto's etc.). Paul's are old school, but they test and ride (again and again) until they get it right. If I had to make a choice today, based on my experience with the Minimoto's, I'd probably get the Klampers. Even though they use a single moving pad.
Volsung wrote:Pauls are single piston so they bend the rotor into one side, just like bb7s. That gives me rotor-truing nightmare flashbacks.
I have 4-5k miles on Hy/Rds and thought they were great. I replaced them with Spyres and like them more. Mechanical's easier for me to deal with, they're dual piston, and there's a little dust cover thing that can help protect the insides parts from winter corrosion. They're also a 3rd of the price as the Klampers and not so klunky.
Thanks for the real life feed back. I actually have some experience with the Spyr's on my Haanjo last year. I'm not an expert on discs, but I was a little disappointed with the Spyr's on my Haanjo. In fact, I much prefer my Pauls Miniomoto linear pull rim brakes on my Swiss Cross. All of your criticism of the Klampers - klunky, expensive, single piston - were echoed in other reviews I read. However, most of these reviews also found that despite their misgivings, the darn old fashioned things worked very well. Why: because Paul's re-enginered all the parts of the thing until they worked. And worked on their own bikes, in the most demanding conditions they could put them through. I'm still undecided; but I appreciate your taking the time to share your experience.
I'm sure the Klampers work great, but I couldn't bring myself to buy them. I do, however, REALLY like that they're rebuildable (and also how they come in polished). I had my Sram Guide pistons corrode in place on my fat bike over the winter, so this is a nice feature. Paul tests his stuff in California, but his brakes are popular here in Minneapolis too so they must be durable.
What brake pads and rotors were you using on the Spyres? The stock stuff are both pretty bad and probably lead to bad impressions on the entire calipers. I got XT rotors from the UK for $30 each. My old Vaya had Swissstop pads which were awesome, but i'm using up the stock ones for a while on my Otso Warakin. I also went from the regular Spyres on the Vaya to the SLC, but so far they feel similar.
To everyone who has contributed to this post - a great big thanks. One consistent take away from all of your input, is that brakes have to be viewed, like everything else on our bikes, as a system. Focusing on one component - in this case calipers - ignores the effect of the other components - pads, rotors, cables, levers, and lets not forget tires. My take away here so far is that both calipers can be very good - provided they are matched to an appropriate rotor, cable, and lever. Right now, based on the info. that you all have generously provided, I'm leaning towards the Klampers. But, that's more because I like Paul's Component Engineering and the no B.S. mind set he and his workers represent. I just feel that aesthetically, a custom steel frame set, built by a small local builder, deserves an almost hand made brake set developed by a small US shop.
My two cents, my coworker had Pauls. They are REALLY wide. On my Crockett, with BB7 brakes, with the brake inside the triangle my size 47 shoe touches the caliper. I wouldn't be able to run Pauls on the crocket unless I cut my foot down smaller. On Andy's Foundry the brake was located on top of the chainstay (outside of the triangle) and my tennis shoes cleared the caliper. I just mention tennis shoes because they have even more of a heel area to rub the brake.
PoolBoyMatt wrote:My two cents, my coworker had Pauls. They are REALLY wide. On my Crockett, with BB7 brakes, with the brake inside the triangle my size 47 shoe touches the caliper. I wouldn't be able to run Pauls on the crocket unless I cut my foot down smaller. On Andy's Foundry the brake was located on top of the chainstay (outside of the triangle) and my tennis shoes cleared the caliper. I just mention tennis shoes because they have even more of a heel area to rub the brake.
Thanks for the "heads up". I also wear size 47 shoes, and ride 175mm cranks. I've always had problems with foot clearance - both toe and heal clearance. Maybe Paul's wont work for me.
I have not been impressed with mechanical disc brakes on road bikes; I may have sampled the products too early (5-10 years ago) but my impression is that cable pull on road bikes is inadequate for mechanical systems. I have a Burley Runabout c2008 with Avid levers and Shimano mechanical calipers and it is nearly perfect. My 2011 Jamis Aurora came with bb7s that were a nightmare; eventually replaced with trp hy/rds that never really felt confident until I made the (factory not recommended) mod of shortening the actuator arm and now they are much improved. My last 2 bikes came with Shimano road hydraulic brakes. Truly, if you want good power and modulation on a road bike, and don't want or fiddle and fool about, bite the bullet and get a hydraulic system - somehow. Everything else is so last generation.
wanderer wrote:I have not been impressed with mechanical disc brakes on road bikes; I may have sampled the products too early (5-10 years ago) but my impression is that cable pull on road bikes is inadequate for mechanical systems. I have a Burley Runabout c2008 with Avid levers and Shimano mechanical calipers and it is nearly perfect. My 2011 Jamis Aurora came with bb7s that were a nightmare; eventually replaced with trp hy/rds that never really felt confident until I made the (factory not recommended) mod of shortening the actuator arm and now they are much improved. My last 2 bikes came with Shimano road hydraulic brakes. Truly, if you want good power and modulation on a road bike, and don't want or fiddle and fool about, bite the bullet and get a hydraulic system - somehow. Everything else is so last generation.
Interesting opining sentence about mechanical d-brakes, then state that your Burly runs mechanical "nearly perfect". ???
Anyway, sure things have changed a bit. Compressionless housing being a big reason mechanical brakes can be great. I set up about 5-7 TRP Spyre equipped bikes weekly and can fool Cat 1 racers into thinking they're full hydraulic just by feel. Same with HyRd and Paul Klampers.
Mechanical brakes have their place. You'd be surprised how many at Tour Divide run them. Makes sense. What are you going to do if you get a hydro leak and lose brakes in the middle of nowhere, know what I mean? Of course the performance of hydraulic is undeniable, but it doesn't eliminate the need for a good mechanical set up for some. Time and a place.
Interesting opining sentence about mechanical d-brakes, then state that your Burly runs mechanical "nearly perfect". ???
Anyway, sure things have changed a bit. Compressionless housing being a big reason mechanical brakes can be great. I set up about 5-7 TRP Spyre equipped bikes weekly and can fool Cat 1 racers into thinking they're full hydraulic just by feel. Same with HyRd and Paul Klampers.
Mechanical brakes have their place. You'd be surprised how many at Tour Divide run them. Makes sense. What are you going to do if you get a hydro leak and lose brakes in the middle of nowhere, know what I mean? Of course the performance of hydraulic is undeniable, but it doesn't eliminate the need for a good mechanical set up for some. Time and a place.
Thanks - 2 interesting points of view. I'm still leaning towards cable actuated. I might even opt for the Spyre's instead of the Hy/RD's. I think the Spyre's will be OK with compressionless housing and perhaps upgraded pads and rotors. Frankly, I had some experience with the Spyre's on my Hannjo last year. Once they bedded in, and I got used to them, they were adequate for my needs, most of the time.
The Klampers are an excellent brake, in both construction and design, and vastly superior to the BB7, imo. And while I haven't ridden the Spyres, a dual-piston design isn't inherently better than a single piston, as many might assume - though it's probably better than a mediocre single-piston.
The Hy/rds pull a lot of cable. I use a type of mustache bars with reverse brake levers and never really got them to work well until I bought the old Paul reverse levers which are designed to be used for either standard or V-brakes. Set up as if I was running v-Brakes (which pull more cable), the hy/rd s are great and easy to deal with, been using them for a few years. There is a new option: Yokozuna motoko disc brakes. Similar idea to the hy/rds. Don't know too much about them but have heard they don't pull so much cable and are lighter. If the brakes are as good as the cables Yokozuna makes, they might be worth a look
