Does this rub anyone else the wrong way [DK related]?

We can argue the definition of "selling out" all day, there are varying degrees, but yet another sign. ENVE [and their overpriced wheels] have now secured 10 spots that otherwise could have gone to the lottery without having to spend $2550 to have a chance.

Oh and EF Education gets a number of spots too. Don't get me wrong, it's cool pros will be there, but there has to be a way to separate the competitive types from the "I'm just trying to survive" types. Lumping everybody into one start just makes no sense to me. 

Anyway, not trying to be mean and unfair [and to some degree I am probably at least slightly misguided], but there are a number of things that add up to "bothersome". 

Someone, please tell me I am thinking about this wrong and being too sensitive!

https://www.gravelcyclist.com/training-rides/contest-win-an-entry-to-ride-in-dirty-kanza/

ENVE is essentially creating their own lottery with their entries they were allotted.   As part of being a major sponsor, I would expect some entries for me to do with what I want.  Would you be upset if they just created a team with their entries, without letting you know they had entries? This is how they promote their products to us the consumer.  ENVE is trying to recoup some of their sponsorship money, no harm no foul.

I have raced many races, both bike and foot, where professionals have been entered.  This hasn't detoured me from competing.  Age brackets level the playing field a little.  Could DK run a professional DK200 and an amateur DK200?  Sure but what does it accomplish.

Race organizers get to choose the rules of their race.  If we as racers (riders like myself) don't like the rules, we can always find another race that is agreeable to what pleases us. 

This isn't a "detour from competing" deal in my books. It's a "find a better way" deal. I'd wager at least half of the DK200 entries would have no issue classifying themselves as desiring to compete in a non-competitive class. What if they took off on Friday instead and that opened more spots on Saturday for those that had a reasonable intention of beating the sun? Lots of levers that would have to pulled, like the lodging issue, etc. Just illustrating an example and maybe these types of ideas have been heavily debated.

The thing with the ENVE spots, if there were 1100 spots in the years before the lottery, are there 1110 now or 1090? Yes, the race organizers can do what they want, absolutely. Just seems to me that there is some inconsistencies in the message and mission. The whole "don't forget who made you, you" argument. If there are truly 1100 spots for the 200, let's not let that actually continue to erode year after year as more people automatically get spots, like former professionals and sponsers.

Oh and a televised DK200 for the professionals, sign me up. I'd pay to watch that!

According to the start list for 2018, there were 1110 entries.  My guess is sponsorship is outside of the normal entries.

And yes, I would pay to watch the professionals race as well

I hate that professionals are racing.  What if Peter Sagan enters?  I'll never win!

You're being too sensitive. Get out and do some other events and don't worry about something that you don't know the inside information about is what I'd say. 

Jim,

Thanks for saying what I was trying to say.  I used to be in charge of food for a major national basketball championship.  You absolutely have two groups you need to take care of-volunteers and sponsors.  Without these two things you just have an event that takes place on certain date.  Taking care of volunteers and sponsors allows your event to be "world class" and something all participants talk about.

Kuddos to you and your team, this is the culture that you have created.  I don't envy you during the selection process time

Also, when I rode last year the young bucks and pro riders were invited up front.  Then they had signs which let riders stage themselves by how many hours they figured it would take them to finish.  There were no issues.

I would like to see an additional event distance.  The DK150.  It would be very popular.

Jim wrote:Maybe I can clear this up just a bit...

Since our second year (2007) we have had event sponsors, and sponsorship benefits have always included a certain number of event entries.  Complimentary entries are one way an event can provide benefit back to their sponsors, and this practice is used by virtually every sporting event that has sponsors. 

When we say "our field limit is 1,100... that means we select 1,100 entries.  (This is explained in our Riders Bible, and elsewhere)  Sponsor complimentary entries NEVER come at the expense of the general field.  Additionally, sponsors can choose to use their comp'd entries in a variety of ways... their own sponsored riders... employees... friends... charities... or special co-branded (sponsor / DK) promotional initiatives. 

Our field limits are listed on our website, under the "Registration" tab.  With our lottery selection process, we EXCEEDED each one of these limits.  We work extremely hard to achieve a fair and balanced representation of many groups... rookies vs. veterans... men vs. women... foreign vs. domestic... and on and on.  This usually means we wind up exceeding our own limits, in order to achieve fairness and balance. 

With regards to expanding the number of days... or adding a second weekend... DK (as do most events) relies heavily on volunteers.  These volunteers are freely giving of their time to support this event and its participants.  We don't feel it would be fair asking them to give us another day or another weekend.  Instead, we will continue striving to make one event / one weekend as amazing as possible, and for as many people as is reasonable. 

Thanks for posing the question... and for the chance to offer this insight.

Thank you Jim. Appreciate the detail. Hopefully I'll see you at the finish line for the third year in a row, provided I get a transfer spot!

Jim - I think it's really cool that you guys are active and communicative on here. I was personally hoping that the number of available spots would go up even more with the Lifetime and Garmin sponsorships, but the reality is that Emporia can physically take care of only so many people...

Regarding the lottery, though, it's definitely more fair for the general public even though I personally have better luck with the "refresh the page a bunch of times as soon as it hits 7:59" method. One of the awesome things about the DK is that you get pros, former pros, bike journalists (even if they accept pickle juice on the course...), etc all riding on the same roads at the same time as normal people, and it's great that all of those spots don't come at the expense of the lotto.

I don’t have the issue with this.  
I do hope that they will separate the start time for men’s and women’s race, so what happened in 2018 won’t repeat.  

What happened last year? I'm a strong supporter of single start time; one of the things that appeals to me about this sort of event is that I'm out there at the same time and place as Jens.

I believe the winner of the women’s field showed up with her husband who is a procyclist, and she was able to sit on his wheel for most of the race. She claimed that they worked together but every picture I saw, she was sitting on his wheel.    If the 2nd and the 3rd finishers had a male procyclist to shield them from the wind (I believe it was really windy LY) and play the domestique roll, I’m not sure if the outcome would’ve been the same.  
I’m not taking away from the winner because she didn’t break any rules, but I didn’t think other women were on same plpalying field.  

It’s just my opinion.

I understand the vendor event ticket option, but could selling a complimentary ticket at 10x ticket cost not be construed as scalping?

cpark wrote:I believe the winner of the women’s field showed up with her husband who is a procyclist, and she was able to sit on his wheel for most of the race. She claimed that they worked together but every picture I saw, she was sitting on his wheel.    If the 2nd and the 3rd finishers had a male procyclist to shield them from the wind (I believe it was really windy LY) and play the domestique roll, I’m not sure if the outcome would’ve been the same.  
I’m not taking away from the winner because she didn’t break any rules, but I didn’t think other women were on same plpalying field.  

It’s just my opinion.

Eh, you see the same thing in every gravel event that a high level team shows up to in all divisions. I know riding in a group is vastly different than having a dedicated windbreak and pace setter (and that happened with the men's winner last year maybe? two people rolled through and the guy who won was all covered in grime because he just drafted the guy who got second the whole time? Maybe it was Land Run 2017?).

I don't think it made a huge difference here (the top 5 female riders went through every checkpoint within 10 seconds or so of 5 or 6 other people, so it's not like anyone was completely solo). Maybe it shuffled the podium a little, but Katie Keough wasn't going to fall out of the top five unless she had a catastrophic mechanical. Plus, people are only pointing out the Keoughs because they share a last name. Third place Alison Tetrick went through every checkpoint side by side with some guy who is also from Petaluma - I'm sure they were working together, but it's not as obvious just looking at the names and results.

I don't mind. I suppose I'd rather have a "clean" race where people don't affect other people outside their category, but that's unenforceable unless you have the races on different days or at different times, and I think that's one of the really cool things about gravel.

What stopped 2nd-5th place to grabbing the same wheel and hanging on?  If you can grab a wheel and hang on, and it is legal, (which it is in this race) then by all means do it.

Delicious wrote:We can argue the definition of "selling out" all day, there are varying degrees, but yet another.....

Someone, please tell me I am thinking about this wrong and being too sensitive!

We definitely don’t see this the same way. And yes being too sensitive imo, you asked.

As to what the rest of this thread has morphed into ......sitting on wheels and strategic drafting partners, same sex or other..... it's as if some have never been in a bike race....it happens all the time (including grass rooters), throughout the field for gosh sakes, it’s legal in most settings,  and it's part of racing strategy.  If it bothers someone so much, either  drop them, join them, or hang on their wheel and let them pull you.....or dont ride events.   

Fact is, Iove it or hate it, gravel has hit the radar.  It’s a (business) game at the front between sponsors, their partnerships with elite athletes, and those trying to make money, up to and including event organizers.   Such is life. The bigger the market/opportunity/stakes, the more important business decisions are, and the more games are played (on and off the course).   If you aren’t playing the game at the front (both on and off the course), you aren’t winning.  Same as it ever was!   Speaking for myself, while I may not like some aspects of the game, I do enjoy all the new gear and equipment options the machine is churning out.

If you believe gravel popularity is here to stay for a while or will continue to grow, either you embrace the reality of what this means for competition at the front of the pack, tolerate it, ignore it (because >98% of it won't effect your event performance anyway ftlog), be miserable, or quit riding in events that bug ya.   If all of this bigger time sport stuff/natural progression (up to and including higher entrance fee's in some instances) bothers someone to the point they cant have fun.....I would suggest finding something else on gravel you can have fun with  (potentially riding solo time trials to your hearts content), there are literally millions of miles of gravel roads out there.  

So much to do about nothing, ride happy. 

These days there are soooo many gravel riding opportunitites to see what will suit your preference.  Solo riding gravel for free, riding with groups you assemble for free, local bike clubs and their group rides for next to nothing, grass root events for next to nothing, larger events, and huge events like the DK and others.   

Over 90% of us at these events, including the DK, are out there riding with goals that have nothing to do with the podium.   Additionally, I have never heard of someone getting a gun put to their head to sign up for an event.

If you are not an elite athlete and you sign up for an event, you should expect some competition in general, and count on the fact that there will only be a select few riding for the podium and the skills/plan to get there...and they will be doing whatever it takes to reach their goal too = good for them!.  Chances are, you'll never see them for any meaningful time during the race (speaking for myself).  Chances are they are more prepared than you are. Chances are they know their true competitors by name, and that doesn't include yours. Chances are they have raced their true competitors before.  Chances are this ain't their first rodeo, and chances are they deploy race strategies that you don't.  Chances are those at the front may actually enjoy parts of the game you don't.   Most importantly.......chances are whatever they are doing at the front will have zero meaningful impact on your 50-200 mile race.  Zero. Zip.  Nada. This is what you should expect.   I respectfully suggest that >95% of us would do better to concern ourselves with the things within our control that may help our performance/happiness, and forget about things that don't. 

None of the subject matter in this thread (or much of anything else) is going to keep me from having fun on gravel, at an event or otherwise, that's for certain.

We are gravel riders, man/woman up, live and let live, and find the fit that allows you to ride happy.

Go team.

Rant over, subject to change lol.

Volsung wrote:I hate that professionals are racing.  What if Peter Sagan enters?  I'll never win!

Easy - just stay on his wheel and let him pull you round then nip out at the end and outsprint  him to the line.

First of all, thanks Jim Cummings for chiming in here on this topic. You did a great job covering the OP's original thoughts, but for one. The riding with professionals on the same course.

It is something many sign up for the DK events look forward to- riding on the same course as the Pros. Not many events can you say that you can do that, DK is one. Plus you get to see these talented folks up close and even speak with them, as many are very approachable. Without the DK being set up the way it is, this would be less of an experience for the other riders and support people, and that isn't what DK Promotions is about. They are about maximizing the experience for everyone that agrees to join in.

And that is the bottom line- IF you throw your hat into the ring, it is kind of unsaid, but you agree to the way things are done. If you don't- simple- don't sign up.