Single track in gravel races

38 replies · 1,055 views

Pipeliner
129 posts
#21Nov 9, 2021, 11:41 AMedited
I respect the effort that goes into organizing these events and I think course design really is something for just the organizer(s) to consider. If they want to appeal to a broad spectrum of riders then those choices have to be made. I wouldn’t feel comfortable complaining to them, the reason for my post is just to gauge what other people think. Is the trend to more technical courses going to continue? I just wonder if I’m in the minority.

I do think that organizers need to be up front and communicate what we are getting into and that is lacking in the smaller events I’ve done. If you are throwing in single track, extensive sand, rocky and root sketch, forewarn entrants. I also think that throwing rock strewn 2-track into an extremely crowded venue like Unbound is not good IMO. Safety should factor in and it’s really tough to see what’s coming riding in a pack.
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ljsmith
762 posts
#22Nov 9, 2021, 12:23 PM
From from what I have seen most races/events offer shorter/easier routes that bypass the tougher sections. I think it’s pretty rare that a race makes all participants ride single track or rough double track.
2
mtbnut87
168 posts
#23Nov 9, 2021, 12:50 PM
ljsmith wrote:From from what I have seen most races/events offer shorter/easier routes that bypass the tougher sections. I think it’s pretty rare that a race makes all participants ride single track or rough double track.

I think that this is a GREAT idea. I'll trade a time penalty for a broken collar bone. 😉
1
mtgrvl
23 posts
#24Nov 9, 2021, 1:30 PM
mtbnut87 wrote:

These are some excellent points and race promoters should take note. We did a local race here in August, The Last Best Ride (registration opens Thursday for next year, if you want to come see some incredible MT beauty) put on by Jess Cerra and Sam Boardman of Legion. They did an outstanding job of setting peoples expectations of what the course consisted of and recommended equipment. Here is their Tech Guide with all of this info and more: http://
https://www.canva.com/design/DAEje_RY6nY/8OxBrrVRXuMa1zlLyV5jWg/view?utm_content=DAEje_RY6nY&utm_campaign=designshare&utm_medium=link&utm_source=publishsharelink#32

RIP to the Pancake Ride. Hope it makes it back, but if not, TLBR will be on the list for '22.

Apologies for the thread drift. I think a little single-track or rough doubletrack is fine in a race. Mixes things up. But not if it's technical. Problem is, "technical" is such a tough term to pin down. Bikers that came to gravel from mountain bikes are going to have a far different definition of "tech" than a roadies.
1
Shurlock
40 posts
#25Nov 9, 2021, 3:31 PM
Keep the single track in adventure racing and keep gravel racing on unpaved roads.

So long as it is made clear to all before race start, it's all good.
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ccand51997
265 posts
#26Nov 9, 2021, 6:48 PM
When I look for gravel races, I expect it to be on roads that you COULD drive in a car or truck. So, I agree, I don't want singletrack in my gravel races unless it is very non-technical. My first gravel race in southern Utah had two descents that overwhelmed 40mm tires and rigid suspension at more than 10mph. They were not technical but they were quite rought. I quickly figured out that race was very similar to what I ride at home so now my 'gravel' bike is a drop bar mtb bike with dual-suspension. I love that bike for most all my riding that does not involved long paved mountain climbs.
1
Max Schnell
59 posts
#27Nov 10, 2021, 9:05 AMedited
mtgrvl wrote:
....... Problem is, "technical" is such a tough term to pin down. Bikers that came to gravel from mountain bikes are going to have a far different definition of "tech" than a roadies.

This. As mentioned previously, I am in the latter camp i.e. prior mtb-er, to the point where during one race I was keeping up with a guy on a hardtail and somehow put in a Strava top-10 on a descent(!). I imagine someone attempting this race coming from a road background was wondering what the heck they had signed up for, though to be fair the promoters were totally up front about what to expect, and offered different course options.

Promoters should definitely be up front about the course types/conditions (and many are), but I think participants should also do their due-diligence, at least for non-first time races. Look at previous finish times, online race reports etc.

Even a term like 'gravel' can have a range of connotations, e.g hardpacked fine dirt/gravel that could easily be navigated with a typical road bike setup, to larger/deeper gravel that needs a wider tyre and some skill just to stay upright.

In maybe 35 years of riding bikes I have had much worse injuries racing on the road than I have had off-road (YMMV), I think a lot of that (apart from luck) is knowing my limitations and not getting into certain situations in the first place e.g. blindly following unknown riders in a pack on rough terrain. Also, riding technical terrain, or even just 'gravel' at speed is a skill that takes practice, LOTS of practice, learning what the bike-rider combo is capable of. There is always risk, and we have to be honest with ourselves as to what level of risk we are willing to accept, and to accept the consequences if we get it wrong. Obviously no-one wants broken bones or a concussion but there is always that potential, especially when racing and pushing ourselves.

Just my 2 (or 3) cents, great discussion folks 👍

2
Xenophon
44 posts
#28Nov 14, 2021, 12:45 AMedited
I don't ride competitive mass start events, never liked the idea of coming out the gates storming in a pack.

For me, 'gravel' implies terrain that's rideable with a civilian 4 WD vehicle + flowing singletrack such as through woods. What I don't expect nor want to see are steep ascents/descents over root carpets, major rocks, 40 cm deep water-filled ruts or axle-deep mud. Those last things have imho no place in gravel events. It's a sporting event, not battle Royale.

Most organisers are upfront about the terrain and explicitly list difficult stretches (granted, sometimes highly dependent on the weather). Occasionally you see an ad and arrive at a smaller venue that lacks a detailed course description, except for a gpx-track that tells nothing if you're not familiar with the area. If you then see the locals chatting aroud their full-sus MTBs the wisest course of action is to simply turn around and make a mental note about the organizer, seen too many ruined bikes and riders carted off to the ER. I expect organisers to be honest about the terrain and post some pictures/vids of what they consider the hardest sectors. Admittedly, in the climate where I am, precipitation can be inpredictable and have a dramatic impact on rideability but usually they take care not to include areas that would become all but impassable after heavy rain.
1
Volsung
878 posts
#29Nov 14, 2021, 6:49 PM
Like Max said, if they tell me about it I might be ok with it. I can't walk well after 5 knee surgeries but can still bike fine. If I don't know about an unrideable sandy section that's more than a few hundred feet long I would have to turn around.

Or I could plan ahead and bring my fat bike or skip it.
0
Koyote
288 posts
#30Nov 21, 2021, 11:12 AMedited
I do a lot of gravel racing in PA, WV, and Eastern OH, and can definitely relate to the OP's concerns. While I recognize that plenty of riders have better technical skills and are better climbers than me, I've been in plenty of races which left even very strong riders complaining about un-rideable sections. If you have over 100' of climbing per mile, and then throw in lots of mud, rock gardens, and other technical terrain, it can make for a long day. After one race last summer, the race director's post-event email actually acknowledged that he should've given riders a more accurate description of the course. That won't matter for me next year, as I won't be going back. I don't pay money and travel hundreds of miles just to spend that much time walking my bike.
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digivon
30 posts
#31Nov 21, 2021, 6:09 PM
It would be interesting if we could get some race directors to provide some input. It takes lots of time and commitment to organize these races, I hope we don't discourage them from putting on events.
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Greenhil
17 posts
#32Nov 22, 2021, 6:15 AM
This brings up a similar question: How much pavement can a gravel ride incorporate? I was gonna ride one in Massachusetts this year and the available info was vague about the route. I had to email the organizers to find out it was 60 percent paved. As long as they’re up front about how much dicey 4th class road, single track, pavement, etc. there is, I can make my own decision.
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Pipeliner
129 posts
#33Nov 22, 2021, 5:43 PM
digivon wrote:It would be interesting if we could get some race directors to provide some input. It takes lots of time and commitment to organize these races, I hope we don't discourage them from putting on events.

Well I certainly don’t want to do that. I admire the effort that goes into organizing these events. They require some great dedication and commitment.
I just was hoping to get a feel for where this sport is headed… and whether or not I’m coming along for the ride.

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shiggy
404 posts
#34Nov 25, 2021, 12:44 AM
Just as MTB events don’t have to all in mountains, gravel events don’t have to be all on gravel
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Zurichman
1,526 posts
#35Nov 25, 2021, 1:54 PM
Max Schnell lol on reading online ride reports of races. I am on a quest of riding a 50 mile gravel ride/race in all 50 States. Truth be told most of the rides on the East Coast could and are ridden on gravel bikes. I have ridden out West yet or the Southwest but from what I see in the Midwest like Kansas/Nebraska/Iowa/Missouri most rides are at least 80% gravel and above. On the East Coast we are just too civilized to see that and if you see a race with over 60% gravel you are lucky. At my end I came from the roadie end with absolutely no mt. bike experience. So yeah at my end I don't want to see miles of single track or hike a bike in a race. I try my hardest to read ride reports from previous years before I decide on a race but they just aren't there very often. I think gravel riders are just too busy out riding their bikes. Seems kind of strange to me that Unbound this last year would put in such a techy section that caused crashes and injuries as their race is already well established and they don't have to do something wild to make their race stand out.

Zman
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Shurlock
40 posts
#36Nov 25, 2021, 3:56 PM
Zurichman wrote:Max Schnell lol on reading online ride reports of races. I am on a quest of riding a 50 mile gravel ride/race in all 50 States. Truth be told most of the rides on the East Coast could and are ridden on gravel bikes. I have ridden out West yet or the Southwest but from what I see in the Midwest like Kansas/Nebraska/Iowa/Missouri most rides are at least 80% gravel and above. On the East Coast we are just too civilized to see that and if you see a race with over 60% gravel you are lucky. At my end I came from the roadie end with absolutely no mt. bike experience. So yeah at my end I don't want to see miles of single track or hike a bike in a race. I try my hardest to read ride reports from previous years before I decide on a race but they just aren't there very often. I think gravel riders are just too busy out riding their bikes. Seems kind of strange to me that Unbound this last year would put in such a techy section that caused crashes and injuries as their race is already well established and they don't have to do something wild to make their race stand out.

Zman

FWIW department: Unbound did not 'put in a techy section.' That is the nature of the gravel out there and every year the 200 goes through a bunch of rough sections. The gravel is loose but it is not technical riding. It is certainly a long way from anything one might get on single track. It is standard two-track gravel roads indigenous to the region.
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Zurichman
1,526 posts
#37Nov 25, 2021, 6:24 PM
Shurlock wrote:

FWIW department: Unbound did not 'put in a techy section.' That is the nature of the gravel out there and every year the 200 goes through a bunch of rough sections. The gravel is loose but it is not technical riding. It is certainly a long way from anything one might get on single track. It is standard two-track gravel roads indigenous to the region.

Sherlock I would agree with you. I was wondering how you could have single track in an area like that. Yeah anywhere in the Midwest you can have some nasty rough sections.

Zman
0
Max Schnell
59 posts
#38Nov 26, 2021, 7:46 AM
Zurichman wrote:Max Schnell lol on reading online ride reports of races. I am on a quest of riding a 50 mile gravel ride/race in all 50 States. Truth be told most of the rides on the East Coast could and are ridden on gravel bikes. I have ridden out West yet or the Southwest but from what I see in the Midwest like Kansas/Nebraska/Iowa/Missouri most rides are at least 80% gravel and above. On the East Coast we are just too civilized to see that and if you see a race with over 60% gravel you are lucky. At my end I came from the roadie end with absolutely no mt. bike experience. So yeah at my end I don't want to see miles of single track or hike a bike in a race. I try my hardest to read ride reports from previous years before I decide on a race but they just aren't there very often. I think gravel riders are just too busy out riding their bikes. Seems kind of strange to me that Unbound this last year would put in such a techy section that caused crashes and injuries as their race is already well established and they don't have to do something wild to make their race stand out.

Zman

I hear ya, often there's just no info out there period, as participants all we can do is our due diligence and say we searched, or reach out to the organisers if there's not enough info. The 'ideal' solution is for the organisers to provide more info, after all, it's their course.
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Shaun McNally
112 posts
#39Jan 6, 2022, 9:02 AM
Sometimes the "technicallity" of certain sections can come down to weather conditions on the day of the event. Out here in western MN, I've got a lot of dirt two track black clay minimum maintenance roads around me. When it is dry, they are smooth, hard and fast. After a rain though they are simply un-ridable. Even on a fat bike, the black gumbo builds up on the wheels and between the forks and chain stays and the wheels stop rolling. I think DK had that same issue a few years back with a wet, muddy MMR section at the beginning of the race. Lots of broke derailleurs causing many to have to abandon. In cases like this, I think course designers should take that into account and have pre-set detours planned in case the weather causes problems with sections of the course.
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