Another Stetina race and another Stetina complaint

19 replies · 909 views

Shaun McNally
112 posts
#1Oct 19, 2022, 2:46 PM
http:// https://www.velonews.com/news/gravel/groad-trip-belgian-waffle-ride-quadrupel-crown/

Seems like every race this guy does, he has some complaint about people not following his unwritten rules, 😏
1
Alagrav
18 posts
#2Oct 19, 2022, 3:39 PM
Thanks for link. I enjoyed reading that. Reports like that give a great window into the gravel racing scene. I'm glad some pros are both racing and writing.

The "complaint" didn't really stand out to me. I'm guessing many folks would have felt the same as him. I'm happy in this case that he shared how he felt and we didn't get some story written by a PR consultant.
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dangle
465 posts
#3Oct 20, 2022, 9:03 AM
Shaun wrote:Seems like every race this guy does, he has some complaint about people not following his unwritten rules

He discussed following the MARKED course vs the shorter GPS interpretation that somebody else followed and won. Not very unwritten. They easily could have caught the guy if it was just a matter of a small attack while they were grabbing bottles.
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thumper88
198 posts
#4Oct 20, 2022, 9:42 AMedited
Not sure if OP was referring to the marked-vs-GPS course thing, which as Stetina kind of pointed out, honest people could disagree on. I’m not a huge fan of his writing, but the clarity with which he put it about having to make the decision of which way to go was spot on.
My Garmin doesn’t behave well on some gravel courses and sends me on wrong turns maybe one race out of five. So its reasonable to distrust it. But course markings are sometimes wrong too. Not as often as my Garmin, but.. if you’re using the official race GPS file... what can you do?

I think though, that maybe the OP as referring to the asshat move about attacking when official race vehicle offers one last water bottle and two reach for it and other immediately attacks as their hands are busy.
Not agains the real rules, but you don’t have to subscribe to the Hallowed Gravel Spirit to think that was crappy behavior. And it’s right to note it. It seems to be the same guy making these moves all the time. If he wants to win that way, fine, but it’s totally legit to make sure fans and sponsors know what they’re dealing with.
Decisions about what negative acts in a race deserve mention in a story shouldn’t be based on whether there was a rule violation. This was a significant reason for the outcome and it needed to be in the story.
It’s not all about Unspoken Gravel Rules. Sometimes people use the letter of the law to be jerks and that should be pointed out (See Tommy D stories and posts).
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SWGraveler
247 posts
#5Oct 20, 2022, 10:29 AM
I generally enjoy reading Pete's articles but he can get a bit cantankerous about stuff. Frankly, imho, the so called unwritten rules are just that and they don't matter. This whole vibe of gravel thing is crap in my opinion; for it to exist at all, the individuals involved need to personify the vibe. Nothing can cause or prevent that other than the individuals themselves. For the VAST majority of riders in a gravel race, they are only racing against their buddies/goals/the distance/whatever it is that motivates them. For the pros, it is about making headlines and prize money so to think they are going to do nice things and have a nice ride together is so pie in the sky. All of this, again, imho, is human nature and not caused by UCI involvement or whatever. No organization "ruined" gravel; it is only ruined if you let things ruin it for you. The ability to go to a race, have fun, suffer and have a beer and laugh when it is over is your choice.

What I think Pete is sad about is that for a brief time, he was so much stronger than most of those he was competing with that they didn't attack him. Now that the level and quantity of other pros has increased, the landscape has changed and he would rather label it as something else..
1
mtgrvl
23 posts
#6Oct 20, 2022, 2:56 PMedited
Not sure his gripe about the BWR is related to all those "unwritten rules." Sounds like the eventual winner took the lead by attacking while Pete/someone else grabbed water from neutral support. Support there specifically to give the race leaders water. Which, I think, is a really smart idea to negate all the dumb drama around hydration packs like what happened at SBT (I thought Pete came out of the looking pretty silly, for what it's worth).

So you have kind of a smart solution to hydration pack stupidity, but one guy just used that perk to take the win. Seems lame to me. But who knows, I wasn't there.
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shiggy
404 posts
#7Oct 20, 2022, 8:41 PM
Shaun wrote:http://
<a href="https://www.velonews.com/news/gravel/groad-trip-belgian-waffle-ride-quadrupel-crown/" target="_blank">https://www.velonews.com/news/gravel/groad-trip-belgian-waffle-ride-quadrupel-crown/</a>

Seems like every race this guy does, he has some complaint about people not following his unwritten rules, 😏

Considering he insists on calling it “groad” I’m not surprised
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shiggy
404 posts
#8Oct 20, 2022, 8:46 PM
On the other hand, Valtteri Bottas and Tiffany Cromwell finished 1-2 overall in the Wanna by about 10 minutes. He said Tiff let him win as they crossed side by side
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Jumbo
123 posts
#9Oct 21, 2022, 7:53 AM▲ Top
Re: the bottle thing. Coming at it from a running perspective, this is something about bike racing that I will never understand. Some dudes wanted water and slowed to get it. Another dude didn't think he needed water so gapped them. He was willing to take a risk (no water) that they weren't. What's unfair or objectionable about that? Don't want to be attacked in that situation? Don't get the water.

In ultrarunning, which I'm well familiar with, you can gain an advantage by rocketing through aid stations while your competitors don't. Of course, if you bet wrong and run out of stuff you need, that's on you.
5
mtgrvl
23 posts
#10Oct 21, 2022, 10:24 AMedited
When it comes to fixed aid stations in a race, I think your comparison is totally correct. You can stop at those or risk and race through. You can wear a hydration pack and never stop, or go lighter, bring bottles and stop for refills. Totally up to you.

To me, that's very different than a car offering neutral bottles to the race leaders. Not sure there's an ultrarunning equivalent to that scenario, as I don't think neutral pacers offer race leading runners aid, all while on the move? Neutral support like that in a bike race kind of warrants some unspoken rules for everyone to take advantage of it. Or, if everyone wants to attack during handouts from that car, then just get rid of the car as the aid's pointless.

Bike races also get even more nuanced than ultras due to group dynamics. Say the winner of BWR Kansas was doing all the work for the group, and Stetina was sitting in and refusing to take a pull. Then, I think, all bets are off, and the winner would be right to be annoyed and attack at the last handout. Or, flip that, and the winner just sat in, took neutral aid without getting attacked, and just waited for the last handout to make his first move of the race. I'd be annoyed if I got 2nd place to that guy. I'm also not sure there's an equivalent to any of that in ultrarunning, where drafting/group dynamics aren't as big of a thing?

Just to be clear - all of that is just meant for general discussion about bikes vs ultrarunning dynamics. I have no idea what happened at BWR.
1
thumper88
198 posts
#11Oct 21, 2022, 1:21 PM
Jumbo wrote:Re: the bottle thing. Coming at it from a running perspective, this is something about bike racing that I will never understand. Some dudes wanted water and slowed to get it. Another dude didn't think he needed water so gapped them. He was willing to take a risk (no water) that they weren't. What's unfair or objectionable about that? Don't want to be attacked in that situation? Don't get the water.

In ultrarunning, which I'm well familiar with, you can gain an advantage by rocketing through aid stations while your competitors don't. Of course, if you bet wrong and run out of stuff you need, that's on you.

We’re overthinking this. The guy was a jerk, Stetina wrote pointed that out, case closed.
His only penalty was being, essentially, called a jerk. It’s not like he was DSQ’d, or relegated a place or two.
He was a jerk, he got called a jerk. Simple stuff. If he can’t take that mild heat, well, he can try behaving and winning one the regular way.

It wasn’t that Roberge didn’t think he needed water, and it wasn’t that they slowed much at all. It was that he waited until their attention was occupied and attacked them at a time when no one, or at least only huge jerks, in even the notoriously cutthroat world of UCI road racing, would have jumped.
It’s not the first time he’s attacked while others were getting water under a nominal truce, but it was the first time when they were getting water from the race vehicle.
It also was a legit part of the coverage of the race to describe that potentially pivotal moment. To gloss it over and not mention it would be to lie by omission. I for one want the truth about how a race played out, not artificial happy noises to keep all the sponsors cheerful.
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thumper88
198 posts
#12Oct 21, 2022, 1:51 PM
mtgrvl wrote:When it comes to fixed aid stations in a race, I think your comparison is totally correct. You can stop at those or risk and race through. You can wear a hydration pack and never stop, or go lighter, bring bottles and stop for refills. Totally up to you.

To me, that's very different than a car offering neutral bottles to the race leaders. Not sure there's an ultrarunning equivalent to that scenario, as I don't think neutral pacers offer race leading runners aid, all while on the move? Neutral support like that in a bike race kind of warrants some unspoken rules for everyone to take advantage of it. Or, if everyone wants to attack during handouts from that car, then just get rid of the car as the aid's pointless.

Bike races also get even more nuanced than ultras due to group dynamics. Say the winner of BWR Kansas was doing all the work for the group, and Stetina was sitting in and refusing to take a pull. Then, I think, all bets are off, and the winner would be right to be annoyed and attack at the last handout. Or, flip that, and the winner just sat in, took neutral aid without getting attacked, and just waited for the last handout to make his first move of the race. I'd be annoyed if I got 2nd place to that guy. I'm also not sure there's an equivalent to any of that in ultrarunning, where drafting/group dynamics aren't as big of a thing?

Just to be clear - all of that is just meant for general discussion about bikes vs ultrarunning dynamics. I have no idea what happened at BWR.

The guy behaved badly. It was a key thing in the race. It was pointed out. Case closed.
It’s not much of a penalty to have it pointed out you acted like a jerk when you ... actually did. It’s not like he was DSQ’d, or otherwise officially penalized. So, it’s hard to understand why its a problem for Stetina to note a key moment in the race in his race report.
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mtgrvl
23 posts
#13Oct 21, 2022, 2:16 PMedited
Are you sure you meant to quote me there? I agree. No prob if Stetina calls this stuff out.
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Jumbo
123 posts
#14Oct 21, 2022, 6:07 PM
mtgrvl wrote:When it comes to fixed aid stations in a race, I think your comparison is totally correct. You can stop at those or risk and race through. You can wear a hydration pack and never stop, or go lighter, bring bottles and stop for refills. Totally up to you.

To me, that's very different than a car offering neutral bottles to the race leaders. Not sure there's an ultrarunning equivalent to that scenario, as I don't think neutral pacers offer race leading runners aid, all while on the move? Neutral support like that in a bike race kind of warrants some unspoken rules for everyone to take advantage of it. Or, if everyone wants to attack during handouts from that car, then just get rid of the car as the aid's pointless.

Bike races also get even more nuanced than ultras due to group dynamics. Say the winner of BWR Kansas was doing all the work for the group, and Stetina was sitting in and refusing to take a pull. Then, I think, all bets are off, and the winner would be right to be annoyed and attack at the last handout. Or, flip that, and the winner just sat in, took neutral aid without getting attacked, and just waited for the last handout to make his first move of the race. I'd be annoyed if I got 2nd place to that guy. I'm also not sure there's an equivalent to any of that in ultrarunning, where drafting/group dynamics aren't as big of a thing?

Just to be clear - all of that is just meant for general discussion about bikes vs ultrarunning dynamics. I have no idea what happened at BWR.

Thanks for that perspective--much appreciated. I was thinking myself about how much we don't know about how that all went down in the race. If Stetina was pulling and Roberge takes off at the car without taking a turn, that does seem shady. But if Roberge been doing his fair share up to that point and decides to take off when the car gets there, I still don't see the problem. It's not like Roberge gets an aero advantage or anything like that off of it. He's just taking a risk (not taking a bottle) that the others aren't willing to take. And if Stetina can go with him, why doesn't he just slam the bottle in the cage and do it?

I agree, by the way, that this would be crummy behavior for those who aren't in contention. If the goal is to share a fun, companionable ride, this is jerk behavior. If the goal is to win it, I feel like it isn't. Could just be Stetina is grumpy because he didn't think of it himself and/or wasn't strong enough to go with Roberge.
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thumper88
198 posts
#15Oct 21, 2022, 9:27 PM
mtgrvl wrote:Are you sure you meant to quote me there? I agree. No prob if Stetina calls this stuff out.

just agreeing with you, basically...
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mtgrvl
23 posts
#16Oct 24, 2022, 3:10 PM
Oh, gotcha. I misread that/thought you were responding to me. Cheers
0
thumper88
198 posts
#17Oct 25, 2022, 3:55 PM
mtgrvl wrote:Oh, gotcha. I misread that/thought you were responding to me. Cheers

Yah, that was sloppy... sorry!
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Bman
24 posts
#18Oct 26, 2022, 10:12 PM
The unwritten rule to not attack in a feed zone or neutral vehicle support is definitely from road racing culture. I find this complaint ridiculous as I doubt that the BWR race organization offers a neutral motorcycle water support to all participants. If there’s an ethos of gravel, then every participant should have to deal with the same challenges of self support. If that means aid stations are available in the event, then you decide which stations that you’ll stop at or if entirely neutral, you figure out what gas stations to fuel up at.

The complaint about the gps course is equally laughable. Many gravel events that I have attended are often not well marked or not at all! You are responsible for making sure you have a cue sheet and/or gps device. I have yet to be misdirected by my garmin and so why would Stetina an the other rider he was with suddenly think that the chalked arrow on the ground was “more right” than his gps computer?

Finally, Gravel has a simplicity to it such that everyone rides their own event regardless if they are racing or simply doing a casual ride but no one is treated differently. And if you need help, flat or mechanical, or crash, the the real unwritten rule is you offer to help or at least make sure that the other person is in a safe place/situation.

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Shaun McNally
112 posts
#19Nov 8, 2022, 8:42 AM
Just watched Adams race report of youtube. According to him, Pete had got his bottle and put it in the cage when Adam attacked. He said he really opened up his gap in the ensuing windy single track section as he had pre-rode that section before and in his words he "rode that section perfectly" the day of the race.
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thumper88
198 posts
#20Nov 10, 2022, 11:22 AMedited
Shaun wrote:Just watched Adams race report of youtube. According to him, Pete had got his bottle and put it in the cage when Adam attacked. He said he really opened up his gap in the ensuing windy single track section as he had pre-rode that section before and in his words he "rode that section perfectly" the day of the race.

Hard to know which version to believe. Adam’s record on this sort of thing isn’t good, though. And it's the kind of thing you say when caught out and are trying to make things murkier in a way that casts doubt on the other guy’s version... I mean, it’s an odd coincidence then that he just happened to attack in that few seconds when the bottle was either being handed over or had just been put in cage... if it had been 30 secs later neither would have said a word about this.

OK... now I went back and watched it...In his race report there are two pertinent photos taken from the truck that was handing out water.
I'm going to try not to overanalyze this, but...
The truck is clearly right beside Stetina, in exactly the position it would have been when he got the bottle. So it just that second happened. and Roberge is out of the saddle and half a bike ahead of Stetina clearly attacking.
The bottle isn’t in the cage, the truck hasn’t had time to clear out, I’d say any reasonable person would think the water handout operation was essentially still under way ....usually vehicles hand off the goods then back off in just a few seconds. That’s what its shown doing earlier in the race.
You can say, ok, but stetina is about to take a hit off the bottle.... but in the previous pic, from same angle, no bottle yet and Roberge nowhere to be seen. Its pretty clear he was a already moving before he would have had time to see stetina was about to take a swig. Its also possible stetina was EMPTYING that bottle before taking a full one.
Roberge describes the place ahead where he wants to lead into the single track as being “super close” when the truck offers water. Yet also says he has a 20 second gap by the time he gets to that spot. Takes awhile to build 20 sec gap, even after catching Stetina off guard.
Circumstantial evidence favors stetina’s take, that the attack came in the midst of water bottle handout operation. Stetina is sandwiched between the truck and the attacking Roberge when it happened. Not a good look.
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