Team Tactics in Gravel Races

I'm curious to hear opinions on the "ethics" of cross-category team tactics in an event like the recent Gravel Worlds.
Would it be cool for a team of Pro/Open Cat riders to work for a 50+ team mate, setting him up for a win, while most the entrants are there as solo riders? Or, as I believe it happened, a Pro Mens Team racing for their Women's Team Mate, specifically racing against other lead women?
I'm new to the scene, but I believe part of the attraction for so many is that these events are "honest". Not a lot of rules, but competition in the spirit of fair play. Or am I being the Boy Scout?

thepointchris wrote:I'm curious to hear opinions on the "ethics" of cross-category team tactics in an event like the recent Gravel Worlds.
Would it be cool for a team of Pro/Open Cat riders to work for a 50+ team mate, setting him up for a win, while most the entrants are there as solo riders? Or, as I believe it happened, a Pro Mens Team racing for their Women's Team Mate, specifically racing against other lead women?
I'm new to the scene, but I believe part of the attraction for so many is that these events are "honest". Not a lot of rules, but competition in the spirit of fair play. Or am I being the Boy Scout?

Chris I am the newbie to gravel riding/racing also. From what I have read so far this isn't against the rules but is highly unethical. I have read though where some guys will work together out front and other guys/gals won't Coming from the ultra road racing you had drafting rides and non drafting rides. On The RAAM qualifers they were non drafting and RAAM and then Furnace Creek 508(now Western States) you had a certain period of time where you could ride alongside a rider and then you had to separate. You either had to pass or drop back(Western States). I have no clue if there is prize money in the gravel races yet as I am not an elite rider. I would guess at my end I wouldn't have felt I had won anything if I was drafting off my teammates all day and they were doing all the work but that is just me. Maybe if this continues there will have to be some rule clarifications on divisional age group winners and then it would/might be hard to enforce as most gravel races that I have seen/read doesn't have monitors out on the course too much.


Zman

I didn't post this above but from what I have read so far I am comparing gravel riding to randonneuring where everybody kind of rides together, gets to know each other and just has fun. If you ride together all day you finish together. Their is no sprint to the line at the end of the day to see who is going to be first. I think that is the majority of the gravel riders or hoping so at least.

I saw or read an interview with the DK organizer where he stated he thought we were just a few years away from teams showing up at the big events (DK/GWs) and racing for a protected rider.  Unless it's specifically prohibited I don't think it's unethical.   Whether or not that conflicts with someone's idea of what gravel racing should or shouldn't be is something different. 

I'm on a local shop team with a heavy emphasis on gravel riding.   We'll typically try to keep our group together but it's usually groups of two or three.  In 2015 we kept a group of 9 together all day at DK.  Last year it was smaller groups spread out over the course.  We'll share the work and stick together (hopefully).  None of us are racing to win but just to improve our times or age group placings.

Dug and Zman thanks for the input - let's me be clear though: I'm all for Racing, and I think these events are just perfect for most of us with competitive spirits - I love the idea that I can "race" my age group. And good for "teams" who up the game, bot "pro" or "shop". I have no problem with it whatsoever, since I know that 100's of riders are not racing, and are free to enjoy the ride on their own terms. Here's my question, by means of an example: Dug, let's just say that your Shop Team comprise of 5 guys, and a girl (and she's a contender for the Women's Title). Now you 5 guys "team up" against the other main contender in the Women's Category - you close gaps, shut down attacks, and then do a nice train in the last 5 miles. All to neutralize your girl's main opponent. That's my question. This is a situation that that seems to have played out last weekend, and for me, it's a slight on a near-perfect event. So teamwork good, but negative, across category teamwork ?

PMC thanks for the input - just to be sure then: if that team had 7 "open or pro" riders, and 1 over 40 contender, and they raced to close you down, and get their rider to the front, you'd be OK to race the team of pro's? Or if you were a woman contender, and the 7 guys pulled their gal, and closed you out, you're OK with that? Me, not so much :-)

PMC - the situation I'm relating is not one about "being able to hang on" or "a girl being strong enough" to hold her own in the Open Class - I'm talking about a Team of Open guys racing against ONE woman contender, racing and working for the woman on their team. Seems not OK to me. 

Amen brother

Dug wrote:I saw or read an interview with the DK organizer where he stated he thought we were just a few years away from teams showing up at the big events (DK/GWs) and racing for a protected rider.  Unless it's specifically prohibited I don't think it's unethical.   Whether or not that conflicts with someone's idea of what gravel racing should or shouldn't be is something different. 

I'm on a local shop team with a heavy emphasis on gravel riding.   We'll typically try to keep our group together but it's usually groups of two or three.  In 2015 we kept a group of 9 together all day at DK.  Last year it was smaller groups spread out over the course.  We'll share the work and stick together (hopefully).  None of us are racing to win but just to improve our times or age group placings.

\nBut unless you ride solo, then they are not really your times if you spent 2/3 of the ride on someone's wheel. If you drafted a top guy for the whole course and produced an amazing time, it would really be his amazing time.

chunkyhugo wrote: But unless you ride solo, then they are not really your times if you spent 2/3 of the ride on someone's wheel. If you drafted a top guy for the whole course and produced an amazing time, it would really be his amazing time.

Dug I for sure would have no problem in what you guys are doing as that is what cycling is suppose to be all about. A bunch of guys/gals going out and having fun riding together. What I think I am reading though is a group of people helping somebody getting a podium spot when that person isn't doing much or any of the work. That is a whole different story and since I will never be there unless it's the old geezer's award it doesn't affect me. You always have somebody that is trying to impress somebody or earn something that shouldn't be theirs and at my end I guess it doesn't bother/affect me because I want to ride and earn my dues in gravel riding/racing. I would guess though that those gals/guys that are in that podium hunt though wouldn't agree with this thinking though because it isn't a even playing field.

Zman

thepointchris wrote:PMC - the situation I'm relating is not one about "being able to hang on" or "a girl being strong enough" to hold her own in the Open Class - I'm talking about a Team of Open guys racing against ONE woman contender, racing and working for the woman on their team. Seems not OK to me. 

Seems to me there's three levels of behavior we're talking about:
1) Against the rules -- not the case here
2) Unethical -- (arguably) not the case here
3) "Not OK" -- i.e., bad karma. I'm more inclined to agree that this might be the case here, but I'm still hesitant to render judgment from afar.

Couple other points -- It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to enforce any "no teamwork" rule, especially on the longer events. So I think it's just something that's going to happen. (Unless they decided to do the triathlon "no drafting" thing, which would be stupid and not fun.)

Second, most of these events don't have prize money (for now), so I guess if someone wants to go to the expense and effort to bring an entire team to work for someone then good for them I guess?

Finally, there's a fine line between "team working for one female rider" and "strong female riding with the guys because she's faster than all the other women". I was riding with a female friend at a race earlier this year; for the first half of the race we were with a group of about 10-12 guys, until the group splintered and my friend and I rode the rest of the race together. She ended up taking the podium, and was about 10 minutes ahead of the next woman, and would have easily won her category without me (in fact I probably slowed her down.) Regardless, I heard some sour grapes "she only won because she was wheel sucking" comments after the fact -- from people she beat.

I realize that's not the situation OP is talking about but I think it's important that we draw those distinctions.

PMC wrote:

It's the breaks of an open class race IMO.  I'll also say there was no way I'd have gotten away from that group that had 4 guys in my age group and yeah they'd have chased me down.  Am I ok with it?  I am, I know how the events are run and it's the way it works.  I'm not a woman but if a gal is strong enough to hold onto a group that the others aren't, I feel the same way.  If the others don't like it, don't race or train smarter or just suck it up and ride your own ride.  
If there were separate races for different groups I have a completely different take on it but there aren't so I don't.  Having been in road races in breaks that caught different Cats I've been very vocal if anyone from the other race tried to latch on or even if the peloton didn't let us pass.

\nBut it's NOT road racing and part of the pleasure of gravel riding is that we don't have over competitive tools obsessed with podium placings.

PMC wrote:

I agree to an extent that the vibe is much different and better...
But you still have overly competitive tools.

What do you call two friends going for a ride?

A race.

Thanks for all the input - nicely covered. It's the "not cool" that I'm on about, especially since the guys on the Team are such a prominent outfit. Makes no difference to my enjoyment and satisfaction, I just wanted to take the temperature, so to speak. And since the organizers of meantioned event do their stuff tongue-in-cheek anyway, I would hate to see the spirit of the event marred my more rules.
I think both the "winners" in the open category, guy and girl, deserved it on the day with stunning rides - the finishing times speak for themselves. Salute Colin and Alison

My 2 cent observations, worth probably less. 

Midwestern US and surrounding states.   Gravel riding has been around long time.   From my seat, in the last few years I hear a lot more people talking about riding gravel, and see a lot more people riding gravel.  Without a doubt (in my mind anyway), gravel riding is becoming more popular.   Without a doubt (in my mind anyway), cycling in general is becoming more popular.   While there may be some nuisance things that come with more gravel riders out on "my" trails (quotes for lol emphasis and self awareness), from my seat, overall, more riders is a good thing.  For example, local shops and retailers are now noticing the $ gravel riders are spending, and are stocking gravel related gear/equipment/bikes/tires/etc/etc fighting for those dollars.  Bike companies are pulling out all the stops marketing bikes as gravel (even if they aren't imo in some instances), etc, etc....but the outcome of that is more to choose from.

With the additional riders, I am seeing more organized events.   Some are grass root and small, some used to be but are now growing exponentially, some are free, some used to be free, some are getting more relatively expensive .... but my point is, along with the gear, there are a lot more events of all types to choose from.

In my opinion (worth nothing), it is not surprising to me at all that teams are showing up at large events, and even at some of the mid sized events.   Teams are going to do what teams do ... which is, do whatever it takes to win, or for their chosen one to win.   If the events continue to grow, and the $'s spent on "gravel" related gear continues to grow, it will take a team (or a really extraordinary rider who hasn't got sucked up yet, or is still refusing) to beat a team at the large events.   Right now, as a % of events (large/small/grass root) where teams come to play, it is small percentage.    

If team tactics ruins your love of the day, consider not riding that event or accept it for what it is so you can get back to enjoying it.   If you are riding for a podium in a big event and teams are doing what teams do, you might have to play the game to beat them.

For me ... gravel is supposed to be about some kind of personal freedom, ymmv.   Yep, I am a competitive person...but for the most part I am competing against myself, and working my rear end of to do better is my fun.    Sure, I see a lot of familiar faces out there, and have noted some that I must beat, and others who I plan to ..... because that also makes it fun for me, ymmv.  But if that guy I plan to beat next time I see him, ends up getting pulled by his team to smoke me .... and he's having fun, who I am to say he can't or shouldn't.   If that is fun for him, great.   It isn't going to ruin my fun. 

My approach is live and let live, have fun, more "rules" approach to winning cracks me up, ymmv.   But, if the only thing that makes a person happy is the podium (which is fine)...that person is likely going to have to play the game to get there as the big events get bigger.   While I ride events, >90% of my gravel riding is training and part of that is training with people I enjoy riding with (more than 2 makes a race inevitably).  I sure don't need a podium to have fun. ymmv, no problem, if that is what makes someone else thrilled to be alive, I hope they achieve it. 

Sorry for novel ... the above probably reads as preachy, if so, it wasn't my intention.

thepointchris ... regarding the "is it cool"/"ethical" (cracks me up) part of your particular scene in which you wanted opinion.  My opinion...it's as equally cool or uncool as your public post and apparent need to call it/her out, and smells of sour grapes.   My opinion, you asked.  If you hate my opinion, if ymmv, that's fine....I wish you success.

My advise (for which you didn't ask) - Respectfully, Let it go and go ride.  If I (totally not qualified) was coaching you, I'd tell you the rider you are complaining about is mentally beating you right now.  Take it for what ya paid for it, if at all, no offense intended.   

GCH - well said "probably less"

Not what was asked for, but hey, it's public, and since I asked for opinions, I guess everyone has one.
I'm not related to any of the parties mentioned, my own obervations relate. But if you feel a need to tell me how it is, again, it's public.

I think the general idea I am getting here is most people don't want too many rules in gravel racing. I believe the only way to stop what you are describing would be to have different start times for the men and women and then they women would have to be strong enough to bridge the Gap or the guys would have to hang back.


Zman

Interesting subject. Okay, here is my take.

1. Specific to the OP's concerns- If an event has a situation where a team could show up, have riders podium, and have an opportunity to market that result, you are going to get team tactics. Obviously, if gravel events had prize money, that would also become a motivation. Is that "okay"? Yes. It is okay, but it isn't going to be a popular move and it will rub people the wrong way, as it seems to have by the comments here. That said, if the way they race is faster, then they are racing smart (as long as that is within the rules). There is nothing preventing alliances between riders NOT associated with teams from doing the same thing, and in fact, that has happened on numerous occasions. It just wasn't as obvious since the jerseys were different colors. But, you may ask, was a women delivered to a top spot being escorted by men? Yes- that also has already happened. I think the fact that the Panaracer team showed up and tried putting their team at the top spot in several events this year has spawned a lot of this gab. But that is perhaps just me......

2, As with anything, this is a complex subject. Gravel events, for the most part, are not seeing any issues with this. We're likely talking about a handful or less of these events which would ever see such instances. It also bears mentioning that in California and a in a few other notable gravel events, road tactics are not only encouraged, but have been they way it is since those events started. As mentioned in another comment, there are events for all run in about every way you can imagine. With over 400 events going on over the course of a year, there are going to be plenty of choices for a rider to find an event that suits their desires for competition or lack thereof.

My $.02: I rode my first bike race as a 15 year old Junior in 1958. Since then I've been racing bikes, and competing in other endurance sports - long distance running, triathlon. I've done some mountain bike racing - long ago; but no gravel races. I've always thought of cycling as team sport. Team tactics being a major factor in race results. Most of my career as a Masters age group racer, I belonged to a team. In the older age groups however, team tactics had little effect on race results. The teams were simply not strong enough to play the game well. I did feel however, that sometimes -especially when age groups, and even sex's were combined by promotors , that a certain amount cross category skullduggery was going on. But, that was bike racings mean inheritance from the cut throat Euro cycling scene. As a long distance runner, and triathlete, I experienced no team tactics at all. It simply wasn't practical, nor was it a part of the sport. To some extent, that's also true of mountain bike racing. In all of these sports, individual skill, conditioning, and effort determined the results. As a consequence, there were fewer "teams", and folks were much more collegial, and cooperative. I guess gravel racing as a sport, must decide what kind of sport it is - an individual sport like distance running, or a team sport. Neither is right or wrong; but I personally hope it remains an individual sport. That means establishing an ethic that frowns on and discourages team tactics as cheating.