I'm from north Texas where we have the Spinistry races put on by Kevin Lee so my experiences with gravel racing / grinders is based on those events. I am now riding in the Las Cruces NM area where the gravel scene hasn't really developed. There are some riders who take their cross and gravel bikes out to the desert roads and go "gravel riding". The problem is there isn't any real gravel, at least not what I'm used to seeing.
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\nThe rural roads in the desert are hard packed dirt with soft sand, some rocks and an occasional short stretch of gravel. The sand is basically sugar and can be very hard to ride through; impossible to control your direction and really saps your energy. Depending on which road you choose the sand stretches can be as short as 30 feet, out to 200 feet.
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\nThere are some people who want to put on a gravel grinder out here in the near future and we are at odds over what makes a reasonable course. Most of the people interested in this have never been to a gravel grinder so they're flying blind. My opinion is that the roads with the long, frequent sandy stretches should be avoided due to their difficultiy. I want a challenging race course, not brutally hard.
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\nSo my questions for the experienced racers out there:
\nWhat is the sandiest race course you've been on?
\nWhat was the condition of the sand, dry, wet, sugar?
\nHow much is too much difficulty on a course?
J. Peel wrote:I'm from north Texas where we have the Spinistry races put on by Kevin Lee so my experiences with gravel racing / grinders is based on those events. I am now riding in the Las Cruces NM area where the gravel scene hasn't really developed. There are some riders who take their cross and gravel bikes out to the desert roads and go "gravel riding". The problem is there isn't any real gravel, at least not what I'm used to seeing. The rural roads in the desert are hard packed dirt with soft sand, some rocks and an occasional short stretch of gravel. The sand is basically sugar and can be very hard to ride through; impossible to control your direction and really saps your energy. Depending on which road you choose the sand stretches can be as short as 30 feet, out to 200 feet. There are some people who want to put on a gravel grinder out here in the near future and we are at odds over what makes a reasonable course. Most of the people interested in this have never been to a gravel grinder so they're flying blind. My opinion is that the roads with the long, frequent sandy stretches should be avoided due to their difficultiy. I want a challenging race course, not brutally hard. So my questions for the experienced racers out there: What is the sandiest race course you've been on? What was the condition of the sand, dry, wet, sugar? How much is too much difficulty on a course?
I haven't ridden sand yet as being a somewhat newbie I have only ridden gravel/flint stone in Kansas and 2 local rides here in PA. I am going to go do the Dirty Pecan in FL. March 3rd. I see some listing of sand pits which I haven't done before. At my end as long as there are no chipped/paved roads and not too much techy single track I am probably pretty good. I haven't read where any riders yet like lots of sand though so if yo have large sections of that with hike your bike you might be hurting your ride some. Other problem if you are doing a ride in the desert water might become a problem. Good luck with it.
I have more sand out here in SoCal. I can "see" the sand better and prepare for the possible wiggle. Our intermittent gravel gives me fits. Maybe we don't gravel roads correctly but I've hit sections that put me on my rear before I knew what hit me. It almost always feels "loose".
It seems to me that long stretches or deep stretches of either will keep your attention and I've come to enjoy the challenge.
The best & worst gravel I've ridden to date was at last year's Chino Valley Grinder (Arizona). There is a couple mile long stretch of gravel transitioning the pavement to what I consider normal desert hard pack & sand. On the way out I had zero issues and was pretty happy the gravel was so friendly. On the way back we had 40 to 50 mph gusts and the same gravel was like quicksand & molasses when you tried to counteract the wind. Looking back it sucked but it made for one heck of an experience.
I like OTHRider's philosophy.
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\nMake it authentic to the location of the ride. Land Run can be a mud bog, DK is the Flint Hills, Eastern Colorado is altitude and fast, etc.
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\nPlay up the variety of terrain and scenery you've got to offer. Make it different. Make it authentically Las Cruces and New Mexico.
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\nPeople like the challenge of a new and different course.
Thanks for the responses!
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\nOTHrider, I'll be doing Chino grinder this year and will watch for that section.
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\nSo now that I have a different point of view on this here's the next question:
\n I want to offer a long course and a short course. What are your thoughts on two laps of the same course instead of an extended route?
J. Peel wrote:Thanks for the responses! OTHrider, I'll be doing Chino grinder this year and will watch for that section. So now that I have a different point of view on this here's the next question: I want to offer a long course and a short course. What are your thoughts on two laps of the same course instead of an extended route?
Re: sand. My opinion, if it's possible to avoid most of it that's the way to go. There's a difference between a challenging course and "difficult for the sake of being difficult to the point of unrideable". (I'm looking at you, courses that are muddy when there are alternate routes.)
Re: double loops. I don't like them. Once I get to the finish I want to be finished. Seems lazy.
J. Peel wrote: I'll be doing Chino grinder this year and will watch for that section.
You'll be fine - the wind appeared to be a new hazard last year. The year before it was freezing temps. It is a fantastic grass-roots race that won't disappoint. Lots of beautiful desert vistas too.
You're only 1/2 hour away from Prescott which has some fantastic riding.
Re: sand. My opinion, if it's possible to avoid most of it that's the way to go. There's a difference between a challenging course and "difficult for the sake of being difficult to the point of unrideable". (I'm looking at you, courses that are muddy when there are alternate routes.)
Re: double loops. I don't like them. Once I get to the finish I want to be finished. Seems lazy.
Thanks OTH - awesome views indeed. My good friend lives in Sedona so I convinced him to do the grinder. He's a MTB guy so this will be his first of this type.
Maple City Century in Honesdale Pa. I opted for the shorter route
Crush and Run 2 out of Lancaster the guy that set this ride up was way out there. Have to show up Friday night to get the surprise cue sheet no GPS ride. We show up and yes the cue sheet isn't the real thing. Then have to show up from 8-10 AM the next day for the real cue sheet.
Riding in Kansas has spoiled for me riding everywhere else. The 1st mile was paved and that was it.
I kind of like the idea of 2 loops for the long ride. If you come in after the first loop and you aren't feeling all that you don't go out and do the 2nd loop. Since most gravel rides are self supporting with no sag wagons if you do the 2 loops thingy you don't have to worry as much in my mind of riders out on the course out of gas so to speak. You also wouldn't have as many surprises on the 2nd loop which could mean you could ride it smarter.
Noah_Deuce wrote:Odin’s Revenge did a figure-eight course, with the start/finish as the crossover. That would be a nice alternative to the double loop.
Good point. Spinistry does that with one of their races, having the course route back to start/finish so that racers can refill bottle/food/etc... The 2nd route, and beyond, follow a different course to keep it interesting and fun. Ours could very easily do that and help minimize the risk of losing someone in the desert.
Good point. Spinistry does that with one of their races, having the course route back to start/finish so that racers can refill bottle/food/etc... The 2nd route, and beyond, follow a different course to keep it interesting and fun. Ours could very easily do that and help minimize the risk of losing someone in the desert.
Yeah the figure 8 really sounds cool and then you also get the fun of the 2nd loop being a different course. Best of all nobody is left out in the desert.
There's an authenticity factor, I think, in a good course. If there's sand, then there's sand. I've done the Crusher in the Tushar and ridden the Wild Horse course (backwards) and both have significant sandy sections which are annoying but not overly draining compared to the rest of the race. If the sand represents a large portion of the course, then you could either shorten the course or reroute around it. If there's too much, I think that you run the risk of folks essentially getting stranded. A 50-mile course with a lot of sand doesn't seem unreasonable, depending on what kind of terrain surrounds it. Although it's helpful to get feedback, I think that, particularly if it's the race's first year, it would be best to design a course around the kind of riding that you and your friends are doing since that first year would be mostly local folks. If it isn't too onerous for you and your friends, then maybe it isn't so bad. If you think it's brutal, then fellow locals will agree, and people coming from farther will think that it's sadism.
Lots of good opinions here. I also would not want to do a 2x loop, FWIW.
There's a race here in Southern Ontario called El Bandito 140 (that's 140 metric) which includes a lot of sand along with a mix of paved, gravel, double track, single track, etc. It's a hard race, and the sand makes it particularly tough. It certainly gave me an authentic sense of place, that's for sure! There are a few miles of it that are quite difficult to get through unless you're on a fat bike.
The promoter calls these events "Stuper Cross" and the idea is that it's like riding a cyclocross century. Which is cool, if you're into that (which I am), but it was really good that the race was marketed accurately and there were shorter options available. Lots of folks very appropriately took the shorter routes, and those featured a lot less singletrack and sand. So just give people options.
Las Cruces is a beautiful area! I wish you folks the best and I'd love to see links to the event if you do it!
