1st tire probem

23 replies · 345 views

Zurichman
1,526 posts
#1May 7, 2019, 10:05 PMedited
So looks like I have my 1st tire problem. I kind of figured something was wrong with my rear tire on my Tamland today when I dug it out of the basement and the rear tire was flat. I last pumped it up and went out for a ride I guess about 2 weeks ago. I pumped it up and went out for a ride. Looks like the cycling Gods must have been looking over me as I came back after around 6 miles as the climb was terrible today and I felt awful. The tire dropped at least 25 lbs when I check it tonight so guessing I would have been stuck out on the road with a flat. That probably wouldn't have been fun. The tire only had a small thorn in the center of the tread. I pulled the tip out. Why didn't the orange seal seal this? The tire has lots of tread left on it and is practically new. I guess I take it to the LBS and get a patch put on the inside. Going to try and let it set overnight with the leaking spot on the bottom and see if the orange seal will work. The thorn was so small I have no idea why it didn't seal up right away.

It's a Kenda Flintridge Pro and I had either 2-4 oz. of Orange seal put in it about 2 months ago so the sealant should be in there. I checked the tire has around 628 miles on it and only 60 miles this year.

Thanks for any input
Zman
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Zurichman
1,526 posts
#2May 8, 2019, 4:29 AM
Letting it set overnight didn't seal up the tire. I thought orange seal was to seal up a tire.?

Zman
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clarksonxc
358 posts
#3May 8, 2019, 10:15 AM
not sure why the Oragne Seal isn't sealing it. Did you pump the tire up and hold the hole at the bottom, so the sealant would be sitting right on top of the hole?
If that doesn't work, you can try one of these plugs to save the tire (and potentailly other future tires):
http://www.dynaplug.com/bike.html
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chas
1,305 posts
#4May 8, 2019, 1:16 PM
Zman - If your tire has sealant in it and a hole, the sealant will (should) bubble out through the hole.

If I get home with a hole not fully sealed, I pump up the tire and put the hole at the bottom of the tire (on the ground). The sealant will pool at the bottom of the tire and seal the hole.

Possible problems
- hole is not in the tread or in an area where sealant will pool
- hole is too big (it should bubble there though)
- air is leaking out through the valve core seal
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dangle
465 posts
#5May 8, 2019, 2:42 PM
It doesn't sound like there's any actual (liquid) sealant in there right now. When tubeless was newer, I loved showing off puncturing a tire several tires in a row with a thumb tack and having it seal instantly with no loss of pressure.

If the tire was flat, it's possible that the inside of the tire was exposed to the ambient air and the sealant dried up. I would pour 1 oz in the tire, put some air in, let it trickle down to the hole and then watch it seal.

If you shake the tire while it's inflated and do not hear any sealant sloshing around, there's not enough in there to seal a puncture.
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Koyote
288 posts
#6May 8, 2019, 3:14 PM
I'll agree with others: there must be something weird going on. I am in Zman's neighborhood (Western PA), and it is humid enough here that my Orange Seal only needs to be topped off every few months or so. I'm thinking that there isn't enough sealant in there for some reason; I agree with chas: add some sealant, pump it up, and put the hole at the bottom. It should seal.
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Zurichman
1,526 posts
#7May 8, 2019, 5:56 PM
Thanks everybody for the replies. This is what I found out and know.

1. My LBS laughed at me when I showed him the very small thorn that caused the leak. Smaller than a needle.
2. 2-4 ozs. of orange seal endurance was put in the tires within the last 2 months.
3. Since the Tamland is my beater bike yes the wheels didn't get rotated every week.
4. All the orange seal endurance dried up in the tire.
5. The tire never broke from the bead so there was no outside air to dry the sealant up.

Needless to say I will no longer be using orange seal endurance and don't have a warm fuzzy feeling of what is left in my Roker tires even though I rode it about every week.

My LBS put Stans in the tires 1 1/2 bottles or 3 ounces. Charge for the 3 tubes of Stans was $11.32. I have thoughts of calling Orange Seal in the morning asking for reimbursement.

Zman
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Koyote
288 posts
#8May 8, 2019, 5:59 PM
Very interesting.

When I went tubeless, I got several word-of-mouth recommendations for Orange Seal -- both of my regular shops prefer it. But I found a tip or two online to skip their Endurance formula.

So, I wonder if you would've had better luck with standard Orange Seal? It would have only required that you check the level (and potentially top it off) a little more frequently.
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Zurichman
1,526 posts
#9May 8, 2019, 6:29 PM
Koyote wrote:Very interesting.

When I went tubeless, I got several word-of-mouth recommendations for Orange Seal -- both of my regular shops prefer it. But I found a tip or two online to skip their Endurance formula.

So, I wonder if you would've had better luck with standard Orange Seal? It would have only required that you check the level (and potentially top it off) a little more frequently.

Maybe I need to ask them to send me the large bottle of the standard for my compensation.

Zman
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chas
1,305 posts
#10May 9, 2019, 8:57 AM
Koyote wrote:

When I went tubeless, I got several word-of-mouth recommendations for Orange Seal -- both of my regular shops prefer it. But I found a tip or two online to skip their Endurance formula.

Why is that?

I've had it pool and dry up if I let the tires sit over winter (5 months). But the stuff will dry up in 6 months anyway.

I'm at a loss as to why Zman's sealant dried up in 2 months. But 2 months is too long to let them sit with no rotation.
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Volsung
878 posts
#11May 9, 2019, 9:13 AMedited
Often the surface of the pool will dry up and protect/block the liquid underneath.

I have my non-daily bikes hanging up on hooks in the garage and give their wheels a spin whenever I walk by.
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dangle
465 posts
#12May 9, 2019, 2:05 PM
Zurichman wrote:
Needless to say I will no longer be using orange seal endurance and don't have a warm fuzzy feeling of what is left in my Roker tires even though I rode it about every week.

If it ain't sloshing, it ain't sealing.
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Zurichman
1,526 posts
#13May 9, 2019, 8:20 PM
I thought I posted here earlier tonight but I don't see the reply. I talked to Orange Seal tonight and they gave me an answer. Maybe not the answer I want to hear but I will accept it. 1st they are sending me some orange seal in the mail. 2nd I bought my orange seal at a Mennonite LBS shop They sell lots of bents but don't have many gravel/mt bike riders that go tubeless. The date on my bottle/mfg date was 2/7 or 2/8 2018. The Rep said that the shelf life date is 1 year from mfg. Seems that the shelf life in the bottle isn't as long as what it would be in your tire since it as dangle said sloshing around. He also said if you are going to keep an opened bottle for an extended period of time keep it in a cool dry dark place and shake the bottle every so often. You might want to look at the date on the bottom of the bottle when you buy yours.

Zman
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advcyclist
29 posts
#14May 10, 2019, 9:19 AM▲ Top
ALL of my bikes are set up tubeless and have been for the last 5-6 years. That's four bikes with at least two sets of wheels for each and a mix of 2 MTB, one road, and one CX/Gravel. All raced on every type of surface in the US except water... from the hot/humid summers of the Southeast, to the Flint Hills of KS, and the boulders and rock gardens of central PA...

I have used and gone through every formula of liquid sealant on the market and consistently go back to the Orange Seal original formula when I change out a tire on a wheel or need to refresh the sealant after a time.

Three thoughts initially came to mind...
1. Orange Seal Endurance formula is not as effective as their original formula for sealing flats. Nothing more need to be said about that... their "endurance" in the name was to imply longer lasting in the pressurized chamber of a tire and not an allusion to the endurance rider that we all aspire to be.
2. ALL liquid sealants will dry up and/or separate after some time... usually within 6-9 months from my experience and in my geography/environment. Stan's will dry up in "Stanimals" or latex boogers spread throughout your tire. OS will typically pool in the low spot and dry into a thick "fake vomit" piece of latex that can then be peeled off the tire and may or may not leave some clear orange liquid inside the tire. "Slime" and Finish Line sealant will stay "wet" longer... but will eventually lose much of their liquid base and fall out of suspension (thus making them useless for sealing punctures).
3. ALL liquid sealants must be shaken vigorously just before adding to a tire! This is especially true for any of Orange Seal's formulas. OS uses small bits of solid particulate that look like glitter in suspension of their formulas. This particulate is integral to sealing any holes as it is (usually) larger in diameter than the hole and acts to block the escaping air until the latex dries to seal the puncture. The best method I've found is to shake vigorously, turn upside down to move the air bubbles to the top of the solution, then either squeeze through the application tube/valve stem, or pour into an opened section of the tire bead.
I personally prefer pushing sealant through the stem as that doesn't force another re-seat of the tire's bead. Once that bead is set on a dry rim and holding air; I do NOT want to unseat it if avoidable.

Just last night, I removed a pair of Schwalbe ONE from my Belgium+ rims and mounted a set of Vittoria Terreno Dry to them. Had to spray a fine mist of plain water around the bead of the tire/rim to get those Terrenos to seat, but man, when they popped into the bead; they HELD! Aired them up to 45 psi without any sealant and they didn't lose a single inch of pressure overnight. I'll remove the valve cores tonight and put 4oz of OS in there in prep for DK.

Just some images of my tubeless adventures over the past few years...

This is what Finish Line sealant looks like after 8 months in a HP (70-80psi) road application. On the plus side; it washes out CLEAN with spray from a garden hose!

This was the one failure I experienced with Finish Line and I honestly cannot determine if it was the failure of the bead on the tire or the failure of the sealant to fill the gaps around the bead.

Then there's my Orange Seal long term tests...

After 4 months in a HP application:
Complete separation after 10 months:

I did have some tape issues on those wheels though, so that may have exacerbated the separation:

This was found under the top layer of tape:

This is my standard overlap section at the valve hole:
dangle
465 posts
#15May 10, 2019, 9:40 AM
Wow, this pretty much matches my experience as well. All of it. Well written.

The only exception would be that I had horrible luck with the Finish Line sealant. It requires waaaay too much (and I don't want that much extra weight in the tires) and I didn't think it sealed well.
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oleritter
364 posts
#16May 14, 2019, 7:46 AM
For Zurichman, I can't help but wonder if you lost a great deal of your sealant while you were riding, through the thorn hole, or maybe another hole that you didn't know about. I have seen this personally. There usually will be some evidence of residue on the bike, but if it was already dirty...

I recommend you don't give up on Orange Seal. I think it is the best or certainly among the very best products out there.

Tubeless is not foolproof. Things can go wrong. The answer to a leaking tire is to install a tube, to finish your ride or get home. Tires can be successfully patched. Sometimes plugs work, or temporarily work. I've heard of people "going back to tubes" but there are so many benefits. The sealant might seem expensive, but we easily forget how much buying tubes adds up. Also, if you change tires, you don't have to toss the good sealant. Syringe it out and use again.
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oleritter
364 posts
#17May 14, 2019, 8:02 AMedited
advcyclist wrote:
1. Orange Seal Endurance formula is not as effective as their original formula for sealing flats. Nothing more need to be said about that... their "endurance" in the name was to imply longer lasting in the pressurized chamber of a tire and not an allusion to the endurance rider that we all aspire to be.
This is interesting, but it makes sense. I guess I have so few punctures or flats that I haven't made the observation.

This was the one failure I experienced with Finish Line and I honestly cannot determine if it was the failure of the bead on the tire or the failure of the sealant to fill the gaps around the bead.

It appears your tire came off the rim while riding? Yikes.

Complete separation after 10 months:

10 months is is heck of a good long stretch if you ask me.

I did have some tape issues on those wheels though, so that may have exacerbated the separation:

This was found under the top layer of tape:

This is my standard overlap section at the valve hole:

You need better tape. My Tesa 4288 has never let me down. I have had no tape failures at all.
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Zurichman
1,526 posts
#18May 14, 2019, 8:40 AMedited
oleritter wrote:For Zurichman, I can't help but wonder if you lost a great deal of your sealant while you were riding, through the thorn hole, or maybe another hole that you didn't know about. I have seen this personally. There usually will be some evidence of residue on the bike, but if it was already dirty...

I recommend you don't give up on Orange Seal. I think it is the best or certainly among the very best products out there.

Tubeless is not foolproof. Things can go wrong. The answer to a leaking tire is to install a tube, to finish your ride or get home. Tires can be successfully patched. Sometimes plugs work, or temporarily work. I've heard of people "going back to tubes" but there are so many benefits. The sealant might seem expensive, but we easily forget how much buying tubes adds up. Also, if you change tires, you don't have to toss the good sealant. Syringe it out and use again.

I keep my bikes pretty clean except for my ride at Humphrey's this weekend so I am not sure on that one. How gravel bikes drive trains shift under those conditions is beyond me. This was the Roker's real 1st test and it came thru with fling colors. I did hear of a few having problems with their drive trains. This much I do know I should have figured something was up when I went to the basement and the tire was flat. Pump it up and went out for a ride. Thanks goodness the 3 mile climb got me that day and I turned around or I would have been fixing it out on a remote section of Michaux State Forest land and that probably wouldn't have been pretty..
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NoCoGreg
512 posts
#19May 14, 2019, 11:40 AM
Advcyclist: Thanks for the excellent post and pic's!

Any thoughts on how sealants perform and/or last if the tire is filled with CO2 instead of air from a pump?

In another post I described a similar flat which wouldn't seal. Like ZMan it was a Raleigh Roker (coincidence) but I too was using the Orange Seal Endurance. The bottle was fresh and there was ample OSE, but alas the rock cut was too big to be sealed. I was able to get to an aid station where I got a tire plug:
https://www.genuineinnovations.com/blogs/learn-about-our-tech/how-to-plug-a-tubeless-tire

It took two pieces of "bacon strip" to fill the hole enough for the remaining OSE to finally seal the tire. The plug and OSE held for over 17 miles now. While the tire is holding air just fine it's fairly worn and I'm planning to replace it with something more heavy duty.

Once I use up the last of my OSE I'll definitely be switching back to the original OS formula.

Cheers,
Greg
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chas
1,305 posts
#20May 15, 2019, 10:10 AM
@advcyclist

Thanks, great write up. I hate the way that stuff bubbles when I shake it, but c'est la vie.

I'm just glad I don't have to buy and patch inner tubes any more.
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