I'm thinking of upgrading to a new tire and seeing what recommendations anyone would have. I'm currently riding a Specialized Diverge Carbon Sport. Right now I have Specialized brand Sawtooth 38mm tires on it. I can fit up to 42mm. I'm riding a mixture of pavement, gravel and hard packed dirt with occasional muddy sections. Right now I'm riding with tubes and not sure if I should go tubeless.
Also wondering if it makes sense to upgrade to carbon wheels. If so anybody have a preference on which ones I should look at. I understand the investment involved and would like to be in the $2,500 range.
most of the carbon wheels I've seen are close to 2K, unless you have Olritter here make you some for ~1-1.5K. But he makes some good aluminum rims for half that that are about ~100g heavier.
If you are riding at your limit and already have some pretty light tires, it can be nice.
Tubeless is worth it just for the ability to run lower pressure without pinch flats. But it does require some maintenance (rotating tires and refilling sealant) and in many (but not all) cases can be a bear to mount (see my Conti 5000 review). Its so easy for anyone with experience to change a tube on a tubed tire.
Sawtooths are fairly good tires. Enjoy them and wear them out, unless there is something specific they don't do that you need. There are ligher faster slicks, or more burly heavy duty tires - Sawtooth is kind of in a sweet spot.
What year is your Diverge? Is it a SCS rear wheel (135mm rear)?
Does it make sense to get carbon wheels? No. I've tried my 38mm tires on my cheaper Stans Grail wheels and my nicer, wider carbon wheels, things didn't change much.
Does it make sense to get a couple of different wheel/tire combos? Yes. Does it makes sense to get a good wheelset for your needs? Probably. I'd put the fancier wheels on the more-road tires. I'd put the stock wheels on the fat, knobby tires.
For good quality, reasonably priced wheels for your needs, DT Swiss and Fulcrum have nice off-the-shelf offerings. For decent quality, low priced Carbon wheels, Light Bicycle has some nice offerings. 3t and bontrager make reasonably priced brandname options. For other reasons, you've got a lot of options. Keep in mind a lot of the cost of more expensive carbon rims is the high temp resin, which is not needed for disc applications. With a gravel tire on the bike, the wheel isn’t going to be aero for the most part.
PS check out Bontragers Aeolus pro 3V wheelset. Should come in just over a grand. I am having no issues with mine. They are light and would be fast if I was fast
I'll be the contrary opinion on this one. If you have $2500 to spend, go ahead and get the G23's and know you're riding on the best of the best. Nothing looks cooler than 3 white Enve logos spinning at high speed! You only live once
I agree; if you have the budget, get all the wheelset you can afford. All carbon rimmed wheelsets are not created equally; people buy and love Enve wheels for a reason. A set of whatever carbon wheels for $1250 that weigh 1600 grams will ride differently than a 1300 gram set of G23's. Depending upon how you ride, it may not mean much to you; if you ride solo at relatively consistent speeds, you may not notice much difference. Don't expect your solo avg speed to increase significantly.. If you ride with groups and respond to others change in pace, you will notice a real difference.
See the review of the Cannondale Topstone on this site and the comments about swapping out the wheels. The Cantu wheels, while they look to be very nice, are still a lot heavier than G23's so the difference would be even more noticeable with G23's.. From what I can discern, the Cantu wheels are basically inexpensive rims built well with nice hubs. Rim weight, not wheel weight is what you can notice..
Rim weight is all that matters because of the affect on the moment of inertia. The difference between a decent AL rim and a carbon rim is about 100g (490g vs 390g), you’re adding a 350g tire into the mix. The energy expended to accelerate a 200g of rotating weight with the moment of inertia were talking about here is next to nothing compared to the body as a whole. Once rolling, that weight adds flywheel effect to REDUCE “micro accelerations”, which the equation is once again dominated by the rest of the mass being accelerated. What you feel mostly with light wheels is a noticeable loss in centripical force, making the bike feel more lively.
For 200g, buy the cheaper wheelset or the one with the cooler logos.
jfranci3 wrote:Rim weight is all that matters because of the affect on the moment of inertia. The difference between a decent AL rim and a carbon rim is about 100g (490g vs 390g), you’re adding a 350g tire into the mix. The energy expended to accelerate a 200g of rotating weight with the moment of inertia were talking about here is next to nothing compared to the body as a whole. Once rolling, that weight adds flywheel effect to REDUCE “micro accelerations”, which the equation is once again dominated by the rest of the mass being accelerated. What you feel mostly with light wheels is a noticeable loss in centripical force, making the bike feel more lively.
For 200g, buy the cheaper wheelset or the one with the cooler logos.
Where do I find the form to nominate this for the ironic post of the week? I love it when someone tries to espouse factual/scientific sounding knowledge and then uses random numbers and incorrect terminology. Enve G23 rims weigh 330 grams and pretty much any gravel tire of any durability will be significantly heavier than 350 grams.
My assumption is that "centripical" is supposed to be centrifugal?
Less centrifugal force doesn't just make the bike feel more lively; it actually makes the bike more lively and responsive to a given increase in effort.. This is why Pro Tour road riders will add weights to their bikes so they can ride light wheels and still meet the UCI 6.8kg minimum bike weight.. Once it becomes mano/mano on that last climb, the ability to jump often makes the difference.
Where do I find the form to nominate this for the ironic post of the week? I love it when someone tries to espouse factual/scientific sounding knowledge and then uses random numbers and incorrect terminology. Enve G23 rims weigh 330 grams and pretty much any gravel tire of any durability will be significantly heavier than 350 grams.
My assumption is that "centripical" is supposed to be centrifugal?
Less centrifugal force doesn't just make the bike feel more lively; it actually makes the bike more lively and responsive to a given increase in effort.. This is why Pro Tour road riders will add weights to their bikes so they can ride light wheels and still meet the UCI 6.8kg minimum bike weight.. Once it becomes mano/mano on that last climb, the ability to jump often makes the difference.
sorry, wrong terms and was using general weights. Tire weight was a 38c GK. Rim was a Stans Grail I own and a LB one I was looking at a while ago. You’re right, 200gr is going to make a shitload of difference on an equation with 80000gr of rider and equipment.....
Here's the only meaningful data I've found on the topic - http://rouesartisanales.over-blog.com/article-15988284.html Summary - in a huge acceleration 0-20mph in 10sec, 200gr of wheel weight would cost you about 1.2w more power per second (12w total). Note that some heavier wheels spin up easier, this is because they are deeper wheelsets with the weight more inboard (lower moment of inertia).
Wheels are essentially a flywheel. Flywheels smooth out changes in rotational energy - that's what they do https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel . Microaccelerations are bullshit anyway. If you're pedaling so slowly and unsmoothly that you're surging and slowing, the rider's mass is going to dominate the acceleration equation once again. If you're worried about microaccelerations, oval chainrings and lower gears will help far more than any wheel weight difference.
Every single pedal stroke is a micro acceleration. If the flywheel affect had any performance benefit whatsoever, us common folk and the pros would all be out riding on 4000g+ wheelsets. And the second point in the conclusion of the study you linked to advocates for a set of carbon hoops:
"The second set spins with a carbon rim. We lavish funds saved with the cheap alloy wheels here where the performance benefits are more significant. You get a very light wheelset that will help you save power thanks to the deep rim (aerodynamic) and low inertia. Pick it from the lead group (from 95 to 115J), or in the first breakaway (sub 95J) if you have the cash. The custom handbuilt wheels are obviously among the best performance/price solutions."
Look, I can't help if you didn't notice any difference between your Stans and LB rims. I went from a custom HED Belgium+/DT240 wheelset to M50's and the difference is night and day. I understand some people are more sensitive or perceptive to that than others, but marginal gains add up. And if the OP is ready to drop $2500 on a bombproof, top of the heap wheelset, I'm going to encourage him to do so. If you think he's nuts and it's not worth the price that's fine, you are totally entitled to your opinion.
Keep believing the hype and not bringing reasonable counter points. Best to worst, you see some signal, otherwise it’s just noise. The micros are too micro to notice in the macro. Again, you’re looking at 200g rotational weight in the scheme of 80000gr. Even on a steep hill with a powerful, light rider at a low cadence, the micro acceleration is very micro per stroke. Micro * micro is not signal, it’s noise.
Personally I don't really care if light wheels and tyres make me go faster, but they sure make the bike feel a lot more lively and more fun to ride. Whether that's worth $2500 to someone... They can decide for themselves, not my bike and not my $.
Regardless of weight differences and aerodynamic gains, carbon rims can provide a (slightly) more compliant ride and with greater durability and a longer warranty. The new Light Bicycle rims have a FIVE YEAR warranty.
You could get some MUSA Velocity rims for half the price, but they may dent on the first rim strike and not be tubeless-able after that.
HollyBoni wrote:Personally I don't really care if light wheels and tyres make me go faster, but they sure make the bike feel a lot more lively and more fun to ride. Whether that's worth $2500 to someone... They can decide for themselves, not my bike and not my $.
I concur, mine make my bike feel more fun to ride and it is 1/2 pound lighter. More fun means I ride more and enjoy riding more.
A point about wheelset prices; 2500 bucks isn't the price point for carbon wheelsets anymore, there are plenty of choice for 1000 bucks US that are well manufactured and safe. My Aeolus Pro 3V ended up being about 1500 Canadian with discs, cassette and taxes.
