Tubeless with Tubes?

35 replies · 1,006 views

shiggy
404 posts
#21Nov 9, 2020, 9:29 AMedited
John wrote:

I am thinking that I will give my experiment a try, with one additional measure. I am going to put rubber Flat washers on the valve openings, O-rings on the stems, and seal the threads with Loctite. My Mavic UST rims are as tight as they get.

My goal is to have full protection without the mess, and once every 6 months or so simply remove and replace the tubes.

I are you trying to avoid with this setup?
A tubeless valve seals fine without this.
The valve of a sealant filled tube does not need to be sealed at the rim.
Tube type tires and tubeless tires are both clinchers.

You can buy tubes pre-filled with sealant. Mostly Slime brand.
If you are going to fill your own tubes, Slime for inner tubes works well for punctures.
0
chas
1,305 posts
#22Nov 9, 2020, 10:23 AM
My experience is a bit different than BNY. There are plusses and minuses to just about anything, I don’t think it is so one sided. If you understand the pro/con’s you can more reliably decidde.
Some disadvantages to tubeless:
Some wheel and tire combinations just don’t work
Its not great for high pressure applications (and tends to send people to the hospital when it fails)
It is a hassle to mount initially, and may be very difficult to repair on the trail (depending on the circumstances).
With tubes: Sealant didn’t work for me at all in high pressure tires, and did nothing for me with snakebites.
Latex sealant will dry out and you can’t really clean up the inside of a tube – its best to use a non latex sealant like Slime or similar.
Working for a bike co-op, I recycled tires – but cutting the valves out of tires filled with sealant is a huge mess.
Latex sealant does require maintenance. For example, it has to be topped off regularly, and you can not let your bike sit over winter (or it will pool at the bottom of the tire and dry into a little frozen lakebed of latex).
Tubeless requires constant topping off of air.
I’m never putting it in my kids tires. They don’t get ridden enough to warrant the maintenance, and I find flats pretty rare for a good tire.
0
chas
1,305 posts
#23Nov 9, 2020, 10:27 AM
John wrote:

Am I missing something?

Do you have a specific problem with flats you are trying to fix? There are a lot of tires that have pretty strong puncture protection if that is the type of flat you are trying to prevent. There are even tubes that give you extra puncture protection. Schwalbe makes some pretty tough tires with excellent rolling resistance. I've used Gatorskins for commuting without having a puncture - just pinch flats - and there are better options out there.

Wouldn't a good tire with good flat protection give you what you need?
0
Koyote
288 posts
#24Nov 9, 2020, 11:13 AM
John wrote:

I am thinking that I will give my experiment a try, with one additional measure. I am going to put rubber Flat washers on the valve openings, O-rings on the stems, and seal the threads with Loctite. My Mavic UST rims are as tight as they get.

My goal is to have full protection without the mess, and once every 6 months or so simply remove and replace the tubes.

This all seems like a lot of trouble.

It seems like your largest concern is the mess of setting up and maintaining a tubeless setup. Which is weird. I've been running tubeless on a couple of my bikes for 2-3 years; at most, I might have once had to wipe a couple drops of spilled sealant off the floor.
0
Frank
82 posts
#25Nov 9, 2020, 11:58 AM
In the end--Running tubeless has so many attributes that make it the best way to go on gravel and dirt in my mind and I bet almost every seasoned rider. But, running tubes with sealant is easy to do and clearly better than tubes without sealant for gravel. I am sure that the great preponderance of MTB and gravel riders go tubeless. My suggestion is that if you just feel uncomfortable going tubeless, then there is almost no down side to instilling sealant in the tube.
0
neinneinthree
29 posts
#26Nov 9, 2020, 12:08 PM
Also @John Z If you are going to run sealant in tubes then I wouldn’t use tubeless tires. Even without the extra space being taken up by a tube, a tubeless tire can be a real battle to install. The last pair I installed would never go on with a tube inside.
0
bnystrom
459 posts
#27Nov 9, 2020, 1:51 PMedited
chas wrote:
My experience is a bit different than BNY. There are plusses and minuses to just about anything, I don’t think it is so one sided. If you understand the pro/con’s you can more reliably decidde.
Some disadvantages to tubeless:
Some wheel and tire combinations just don’t work
I haven't found any with gravel or MTB tires, but they probably exist. Road tires can definitely be problematic.

Its not great for high pressure applications (and tends to send people to the hospital when it fails)
Considering that the most pressure I run in tubeless gravel tires is 32psi, it's not an issue.

It is a hassle to mount initially, and may be very difficult to repair on the trail (depending on the circumstances).
I haven't found that to be the case with gravel tires. They've always mounted fine with a hand pump and have been easy to deal with on rides. Worst case, you put a tube in. I always have a couple ounces of sealant and a valve core wrench with me, and a plug kit, just in case.

With tubes: Sealant didn’t work for me at all in high pressure tires, and did nothing for me with snakebites.
Again, high pressures are not an issue on a gravel bike. There are limits to what you can expect sealant to do.

Latex sealant will dry out and you can’t really clean up the inside of a tube – its best to use a non latex sealant like Slime or similar.
By the time you have enough dried sealant in a tube to be an issue, the tube will be so old that you won't mind replacing it. At least that's been my experience. FWIW, I only use latex sealant.

Working for a bike co-op, I recycled tires – but cutting the valves out of tires filled with sealant is a huge mess.
I imagine it would be, but it's not really relevant to this discussion.

Latex sealant does require maintenance. For example, it has to be topped off regularly, and you can not let your bike sit over winter (or it will pool at the bottom of the tire and dry into a little frozen lakebed of latex).
Yes and no.
I add sealant 2-3 times a year. It takes all of five minutes.
I have never had pooling issues with any bike, even those that I don't ride regularly. Jump on the bike and the sealant redistributes itself. That happens every time you ride.
I have never seen sealant freeze, even at temps in the single digits. Perhaps it will at below-zero temps, but I don't ride when it's that cold.

Tubeless requires constant topping off of air.
All bike tires require topping off before rides. I haven't found tubeless to make any difference. The more pressure you run, the more you need to top them off. That's perfectly normal.

I’m never putting it in my kids tires. They don’t get ridden enough to warrant the maintenance, and I find flats pretty rare for a good tire.
OK, but again, it's not relevant to this discussion.
John Z
174 posts
#28Nov 10, 2020, 7:42 AM
neinneinthree wrote:Also @John Z If you are going to run sealant in tubes then I wouldn’t use tubeless tires. Even without the extra space being taken up by a tube, a tubeless tire can be a real battle to install. The last pair I installed would never go on with a tube inside.

My bike is brand-new. I swapped out the stock wheels for Mavic Allroad Pros; these came with tubes installed. I swapped off the Mavic tires for Continental Terra Trails; I was able to install tubes with no problems. I hope if (and I am leaning to no tubes now) that I don't have the weeping issue as reported here.
0
Koyote
288 posts
#29Nov 10, 2020, 7:52 AM
John wrote:

My bike is brand-new. I swapped out the stock wheels for Mavic Allroad Pros; these came with tubes installed. I swapped off the Mavic tires for Continental Terra Trails; I was able to install tubes with no problems. I hope if (and I am leaning to no tubes now) that I don't have the weeping issue as reported here.

I suggest Orange Seal, and use all of the tricks: hold the wheels in front of you, roughly parallel to the floor, and wobble it around so that sealant coats the sidewall that is facing downward, then set the wheel on a bucket and let it sit for a couple hours. (Use the bucket so that the wheel can rest parallel to the floor, even though you may have the cassette and rotor attached - they sit inside the bucket.) Do this with each wheel, on each side. to allow sealant to coat and penetrate the sidewalls. Make sure you have used plenty of sealant for the initial install, since it's job (partly) is to make the sidewalls non-porous.
0
bnystrom
459 posts
#30Nov 10, 2020, 7:56 AM
John wrote:

My bike is brand-new. I swapped out the stock wheels for Mavic Allroad Pros; these came with tubes installed. I swapped off the Mavic tires for Continental Terra Trails; I was able to install tubes with no problems. I hope if (and I am leaning to no tubes now) that I don't have the weeping issue as reported here.
Tubes shouldn't make installing a tire more difficult if you use correct technique, as you've seen.
0
bnystrom
459 posts
#31Nov 10, 2020, 7:58 AM
Koyote wrote:

I suggest Orange Seal, and use all of the tricks: hold the wheels in front of you, roughly parallel to the floor, and wobble it around so that sealant coats the sidewall that is facing downward, then set the wheel on a bucket and let it sit for a couple hours. (Use the bucket so that the wheel can rest parallel to the floor, even though you may have the cassette and rotor attached - they sit inside the bucket.) Do this with each wheel, on each side. to allow sealant to coat and penetrate the sidewalls. Make sure you have used plenty of sealant for the initial install, since it's job (partly) is to make the sidewalls non-porous.
0
bnystrom
459 posts
#32Nov 10, 2020, 7:59 AMedited
Koyote wrote:

I suggest Orange Seal, and use all of the tricks: hold the wheels in front of you, roughly parallel to the floor, and wobble it around so that sealant coats the sidewall that is facing downward, then set the wheel on a bucket and let it sit for a couple hours. (Use the bucket so that the wheel can rest parallel to the floor, even though you may have the cassette and rotor attached - they sit inside the bucket.) Do this with each wheel, on each side. to allow sealant to coat and penetrate the sidewalls. Make sure you have used plenty of sealant for the initial install, since it's job (partly) is to make the sidewalls non-porous.
While I typically don't get that elaborate, it seems like a pretty good method if you have the time.

That said, some tires will weep sealant through the sidewalls no matter what you do. The Schwalbe Rocket Rons on my hardtail have been weeping for years. There are new damp spots on the sidewall after every ride, but they don't lose measurable air pressure. I don't get any sealant dripping, just damp spots.

FWIW, I use a lot less sealant than the manufacturers recommend, typically 1/2 - 1/3. Some of the recommendations I've seen are simply ridiculous and are obviously more about selling lots of sealant than about actually what's necessary to seal a tire. In a typical gravel tire (~40mm), much more than 1 to 1 1/2 ounces (~30-45cc) is basically a waste. You don't need a lot of sealant sloshing around in a tire for it to seal. Adding more just increases the weight of your wheels and the likelihood of the formation of "oysters" or sealant balls in the tire.
0
chas
1,305 posts
#33Nov 10, 2020, 10:15 AM
John wrote:
I hope if (and I am leaning to no tubes now) that I don't have the weeping issue as reported here.

I wouldn't worry about it if you do. Its much to do about nothing. Functionally, it doesn't really impact anything, just looks odd having wet spots. My Terraspeeds do it, my ramblers did it. Heck in the old days I even did it ghetto tubeless with conti road tires When the latex dries, it rather makes its own thin innertube.
0
chas
1,305 posts
#34Nov 10, 2020, 10:22 AM
Frank wrote:In the end--Running tubeless has so many attributes that make it the best way to go on gravel and dirt in my mind and I bet almost every seasoned rider. But, running tubes with sealant is easy to do and clearly better than tubes without sealant for gravel. I am sure that the great preponderance of MTB and gravel riders go tubeless. My suggestion is that if you just feel uncomfortable going tubeless, then there is almost no down side to instilling sealant in the tube.

there is some. Whether it is relevant is up to you. But, it will dry out.

Where I live we have winter, and most of my bikes go idle for 6 months. In that time, most of the sealant will dry out and form a hard latex pool. If its in an inner tube, there is no cleaning it out (or Stan's boogers if you use that).

Again, there is no right or wrong. We have different needs, but its good to be educated.

FYI - slowtwitch just put out an article on winter maintenance of tubeless tires. Its an important read if you are new to this.
0
Frank
82 posts
#35Nov 10, 2020, 1:59 PM
Chas---yup I bet winter is an issue. I know of some who add 15 cc water to the sealant to deal with the drying and this wont effect the sealant effect. Or why not just remove the sealant if you are not going to ride it for 6 months? I know of no seasoned riders in the west , as I am, who use tubes on their gravel bike. As far as the booger that can build up with sealant on tubeless set up, I never clean it out and I just keep adding sealant to top off every few months to take care of any sealant drying out. Of course, we ride all year long. When I change out the tire every couple of years, that takes care of the booger.
0
EBG18T
53 posts
#36Jan 31, 2021, 4:37 PM
I’ve only run tubeless for the better part of 2 decades. The only thing I’ve changed in the past few years is that I clean the old dried pool of sealant out of the tire when the season starts. I found the dried pooled sealant created a weird lumpy feeling in my tires at higher speeds. This is assuming I’m using the old tires. But as the years go by I am starting to just install new tires every season to have fresh rubber.
0

Related threads

Compass Bon Jon tubelessGravel Tires · 39 replies · Mar 23, 2018
Do manufacturers screw you on price point if you want tubeless?Bikes · 45 replies · Mar 6, 2020
Zipp Course 30 or Stan's Grails or.....Gravel Wheels (Wheels, Rims, Hubs, Etc) · 12 replies · Nov 10, 2015
Challenge gravel grinder tubeless?Gravel Tires · 9 replies · Jul 22, 2017
Tubeless QuestionGravel Tires · 36 replies · Nov 3, 2018