I am considering tubeless and the world seems split 50/50 regarding tubes vs. tubeless. Has anyone tried both? I am a pressure fanatic (always check the night before a ride and even add 5 PSI to compensate for pressure loss).
I never had a problem with pinch flats, road or mountain. While I just bought my first gravel bike, I have many miles with a road bike riding on hardpack roads, unpaved rail-trails, canal towpaths, and old Macadam roads with eroded surfaces that most would not attempt with a road bike.
Putting aside the marginal "better performance" from tubeless tires, I am wondering if running tubes with sealant might provide the best of both worlds?
Tubeless of course, but your OCD to check pressure daily will definitely get you with tubeless. I do top-off my pressure on weekly basis, as you do lose a bit over time.
Many articles and videos on tubeless benefits...and it's all true. Main downsides? Initial setup for the inexperienced...and topping off air pressure for the OCD.
BTW, didn't notice you original question around putting sealant in tubes. Seems like a terrible idea....not sure how you'll pump sealant in and not gunk up the valves in your tubes. Unless you have tubes with removable valve cores, like tubeless values.
And also, tubeless benefit is not really pinch flats for gravel or road - (that's more a MTB benefit). It's those darn thorn and puncture flats. You also never get these with tubeless and almost never notice, as the sealant just quietly does it job and reseals the puncture as you ride.
smoothmoose wrote:BTW, didn't notice you original question around putting sealant in tubes. Seems like a terrible idea....not sure how you'll pump sealant in and not gunk up the valves in your tubes. Unless you have tubes with removable valve cores, like tubeless values.
I remember seeing tubes with removable valve cores, but I need to look around as the three brands I have now, do not have removable valve cores.
smoothmoose wrote:And also, tubeless benefit is not really pinch flats for gravel or road - (that's more a MTB benefit). It's those darn thorn and puncture flats. You also never get these with tubeless and almost never notice, as the sealant just quietly does it job and reseals the puncture as you ride.
Very good inputs but I should have provided more details. I live in the city with an apartment that does not have storage, so I leakage is the issue, then of course being getting a flat that cannot be sealed by sealant, requiring a messy tube installation. Lastly, in theory, instead of a messy process to periodically add sealant, the tube with the sealant could be replaced.
Very good inputs but I should have provided more details. I live in the city with an apartment that does not have storage, so I leakage is the issue, then of course being getting a flat that cannot be sealed by sealant, requiring a messy tube installation. Lastly, in theory, instead of a messy process to periodically add sealant, the tube with the sealant could be replaced.
Adding sealant is not a "messy process." You remove the valve core, squirt in some sealant, then replace the valve core and pump up the tire. You do want to remove any pressure on the tire, so that the beads will not unseat themselves, so it helps to have the bike in a repair stand while you do it. Otherwise just remove the wheel and lay it horizontally on the floor.
Agreed. It's not messy once you get the hang of it. If you go for it, be sure to fully seat both beads with a dry tire by inflating to ~60psi till the loud pops are finished (you probably know you might need a booster - I always do). Once seated, release the pressure and fill the sealant through the valve stem before installing the cores. Use the small squirt bottles for the single tire-sized amounts and get a big bottle to refill it. As to the messy tube installation roadside - I do carry a spare tube but I have never needed it.
Seconded. I'm using the GK SK43s and they hold air way better than the Resolutes they replaced. I'd put that down to the very substantial sidewalls. Impressed so far.
I've been running sealent in tubes for the last few years both on tarmac and gravel, mostly to prevent flats from thorns, flints and glass. They've been very successful and have reduced number of flats with about 90%. Also my latest setup with Challenger latex tubes and normal clinchers is actually lighter than tubeless tyres. Note, all schwalbe and most Challenger tubes comes with removable valve cores. That is 100% necessary IMO.
I run tubeless on both my gravel bikes and have been very happy for reasons already stated. But, I use tubes WITH sealant (stan's) on my touring bike which I ride on mixed pavement and gravel. It is simple to set up as has been stated and dramatically reduced puncture issues here in Az with goat heads and other sharp objects that can even be found on pavement. Finding tubes with removable valve core is easy.
TheSchroder wrote:I've been running sealent in tubes for the last few years both on tarmac and gravel, mostly to prevent flats from thorns, flints and glass. They've been very successful and have reduced number of flats with about 90%. Also my latest setup with Challenger latex tubes and normal clinchers is actually lighter than timeless tyres. Note, all schwalbe and most Challenger tubes comes with removable valve cores. That is 100% necessary IMO.
I am thinking that I will give my experiment a try, with one additional measure. I am going to put rubber Flat washers on the valve openings, O-rings on the stems, and seal the threads with Loctite. My Mavic UST rims are as tight as they get.
My goal is to have full protection without the mess, and once every 6 months or so simply remove and replace the tubes.
Oh, long long ago I had a solution for this on my commuter bike.
I use Flat Attack or slime tubes. It does what you are asing, but its not latex based, so it does not dry up or require any maintenance. It didn't really do anything for pinch flats - I still got a flat. It was kinda hit and miss on other flats too. Didn't seem to work at all on road tires, but id did work on mountain bike tires. But with the latter, I typically would get some thing that stuck in the tire and stayed there, where with a road tire I'd get a piece of glass or something that put a small hole in the tire but did not plug up the leak.
I've heard that latex really needs air to cause a chemical reaction to get it to seal up (This was by "stans" and I'm thinking they know what they are talking about). Not sure how well it would really work if you got a puncture that went through the tube, but was not really exposed to air because it was inside the tire.
Why do you ask "have you tried both?" I do tend to run tubes on my front tire and tubeless on my rear as I have way too many tires to maintain tubeless, I like to change my front tire, and debris almost never punctures my front tire - it gets thrown to the rear and that is the one that gets 90% of the puncture related flats. It tends to get more pinch flats too as I'm more protective of my front tire, and of course the rear has more weight on it.
On a side note, I often add a teaspoon of finely grounded pepper to the sealent before injecting in the tubes. It does add an extra dimension to the sealing ability (and it's 100% organic, no microplastics or chemicals spilled into nature)
Hmmm. Never heard of adding pepper--has it improved flat risk that you have been able to see?? Where did you hear about this? Anyone else use pepper?? As for the air exposure needed to allow the resin sealant to work--I have clearly had good results with just injecting the sealant and forgetting about it. I never top it off every few months like I do with tubeless tires. It doesnt appear to dry out like in tubeless tires. Further, I wonder, if air exposure is needed for the sealant to work, is there enough air with the puncture itself? I have pulled out many goat heads in these tire/tubes with sealant and never have to change the tube.
Frank wrote:Hmmm. Never heard of adding pepper--has it improved flat risk that you have been able to see?? Where did you hear about this? Anyone else use pepper?? As for the air exposure needed to allow the resin sealant to work--I have clearly had good results with just injecting the sealant and forgetting about it. I never top it off every few months like I do with tubeless tires. It doesnt appear to dry out like in tubeless tires. Further, I wonder, if air exposure is needed for the sealant to work, is there enough air with the puncture itself? I have pulled out many goat heads in these tire/tubes with sealant and never have to change the tube.
Frank, we are on the same wavelength. Let me reiterate -- I live in a city apartment with no storage. For my gravel bike, I want the best possible puncture resistance wit the least amount of hassle and mess. As such, the thought occurred to me that maybe tubes in a tubeless meets my requirements, with some consideration:
Performance "issues": minimal.
Practicality: none, as tubes with irremovable valve cores are readily available.
Additional work: little.
Additional caution: pinching tubes when installing and inflating -- OK, could be a pain with sealant in the tubes.
Now, regarding how well sealant will work? Certainly, with clinchers, there is an advantage, but with the reverse issue! Is the mess worth the protection?
The aerobic nature of sealant remains the issue (other than what I will say below). In a tubeless configuration, is there enough air to allow the sealant to work? Will the valve opening be a problem?
Regarding the valve opening problem, I think I have a solution with a washer and Loctite. The air issue I cannot verify just yet...
Forgot to elaborate, adding ground pepper to sealant is an eco friendly alternative to glitter. As I understand sealent works two ways, both reacting to air AND clogging of small particles in the hole. Glitter/pepper adds to that process. I once had a flat (Wtb Nano 40c) that the sealant wouldn't seal. As an experiment I tried adding the ground pepper and it sealed instantly. I've been adding pepper since!
You are WAY overthinking things. Here are the facts:
If you have tubeless wheels, there's no good reason not to run tubeless tires. They just plain work and the benefits are well documented. It's all I use on bikes that are ridden off-pavement.
If you do not have tubeless wheels, trying to run tubeless is dangerous because the tire beads are likely to unseat in high-stress situations. If that's what your idea of using rubber washers, o-rings and Loctite is about, forget it. You can't compensate for incompatible tires/rims.
Sealant works well in all types of tires. I've used it in tubeless, with tubes (on and off road) and even in tubular road tires and it works perfectly. Flats are almost a thing of the past.
Quality sealants already contain solids to help seal larger holes; you don't need to add pepper or glitter or cornmeal or anything else. Those are things that are typically discussed when people are trying to make home-brew sealant.
Removable valve cores are a must when using tubes with sealant and they're readily available. There are ways to get around this and I've done it, but it's a pain.
In general, using sealants is not messy, especially with tubes. It can be a mess if you're doing things like swapping tubeless tires between wheels (something I did for a friend recently), but most people don't do that. In normal use, leakage is nonexistent. The other case that can be messy is if you have to install a tube to fix a larger leak in a tubeless tire with sealant in it. See below for a way around that.
Get a plug kit in case you get a flat that's too big for the sealant to seal alone. The Stan's Dart is a good way to go that's reasonably priced and hassle free, unlike the "bacon strip" types and those with expensive, pointy, brass-tipped plugs that can damage rims.
Lastly, stick with a quality sealant with a proven track record. Stan's has been my go-to sealant, but Orange seal is very highly regarded, too. IIRC, Schwalbe sealant is just rebranded Stan's. I had real problems with the original Caffelatex, but apparently their current products are better. Beyond that, I can't offer much advice on products that work reliably.
@John Z Before tubeless was around I used to run sealant in latex tubes for triathlons since this was the best way at the time to reduce the chance of a flat during a long race. One thing to be aware of is when the bike is not being ridden the valve stems need to be kept at 6:00 otherwise the sealant will stay in the valves, dry up, and make it difficult to inflate the tire. Otherwise, running sealant in tubes just adds another layer of protection if you don’t want to run a tubeless setup.
