Why Don't Specialized Pathfinder Pros get more love on the forum? Are the BRR Rankings legit?

Trek is the worst of all the big players. 

Period.

I do not have a favorite brand or brands.  I own bikes from 10 different companies, including five Trek bikes.  They make some good bikes but their culture is toxic and they represent everything wrong with the bike industry. 

They are a pretentious, corporate culture driven, late-stage capitalist problem.  

Been doing this 50+ years.    I still work in the industry.  I worked for Trek for almost 10 years and know plenty of dirt and they are the worst of all the major bike corps when it comes to selling crap to ignorant consumers.

Shurlock wrote:

Trek is the worst of all the big players. 

Period.

 

I do not have a favorite brand or brands.  I own bikes from 10 different companies, including five Trek bikes.  They make some good bikes but their culture is toxic and they represent everything wrong with the bike industry. 

 

They are a pretentious, corporate culture driven, late-stage capitalist problem.  

 

Been doing this 50+ years.    I still work in the industry.  I worked for Trek for almost 10 years and know plenty of dirt and they are the worst of all the major bike corps at selling lousy stuff to unsuspecting consumers. 

 

1. With product demand so high starting your new bike company will be less risky. 
2. If you're right about your extensive experience and the status quo you'll have some extra advantages. If there is such a toxic culture issue it will be easier for your to recruit talent inside your firm, and market your products to all the customers.
3. All the empty retail space will be an advantage. Even in top markets the new infill style residential with retail construction struggles to fill the retail so your new line can more easily be sold in great locations.
4. Not everyone is having the same shortage issues. My niche in retail food is clearly more competent than the bike industry on freight, speed and accuracy. You can hurry up and follow the businesses that are copying how we operate.
5. There's a lot of cash out there now so you have far more who will look at your business plan. That same scenario can help you build your dealer or franchise base.

mtgrvl wrote:

Quinn Simmons is on a Pirelli here:  https://www.velonews.com/gallery/new-and-unreleased-trek-checkpoint-felt-breed-and-cannondale-gravel-bike-spotted-in-kansas/

Not sure exactly which size/model, but looks like Cinturato GravelH to me. 

[QUOTE username=Familyridz userid=7677671 postid=1327104305]Thanks to all for lots of insightful comments that led me to look at lots of different tires and research as I think about wheels and tires for a custom gravel tandem.  The last issue to address is this one:

dangle wrote:the rotating mass that we mistakenly call 'unsprung weight' in cycling has been debunked as being an issue.

/QUOTE]
This comment contradicted a lot of what I had read in the past about road cycling, and looking into it was quite interesting.  Things I came across have me wondering if the stiff sidewall is a speed feature, not a bug. I am wondering which "debunking" is referred to--that larger and therefore heavier 29er wheels are faster than smaller 26ers using same rims and tires?

In the MTB setting where the next bump is a wheel revolution revolution away, I certainly see how the acceleration put into the larger flywheel effect wheel gets repaid instantly in climbing the next tree root or rock, and the better rollover angle makes it faster.  On smooth roads and road racing, a lot has been written about the value of low inertia wheels.

Classics (Paris-Roubaix and similar cobble races) now use larger rims and tires, and gravel lies between those races and MTB XC riding, so these contrary findings from road and MTB may both apply.  I suspect the positive comments in the Rolf Hyalite review relate to the rotational inertia comments below.

Rotating mass, or more precisely how more mass at the rim, not the hub, affects a wheel's rotational inertia and the work required to accelerate it.  A search of VN for rotational inertia https://www.velonews.com/?s=rotational+inertia revealed they built a torsional pendulum to measure it, have worked out in detail the physics formulas https://www.velonews.com/gear/calculating-a-wheel’s-moment-of-inertia/  A couple of interesting quotes from https://www.velonews.com/gear/technical-faq-tapping-derailleur-hangers-shimming-carbon-and-rear-aero-wheels/:
"for a guy in a local race just hanging on in the pack, doing as little as he can and hoping for a good placing at the finish, aero schmaero. It just isn’t going to make a significant difference for him. He is better off with a lightweight bike and lightweight wheels of low rotational inertia to reduce the energy required for him to stay with the group when it surges in speed."  

The aero benefit of being able to stay on the wheel of the guy in front of you or drop the guy behind you far outweighs the aero benefit of a deep rim, especially on the rear where the airflow over the frame, bottles, spinning legs, etc. is so disturbed already.  Other quotes:

"attacks from the GC riders on climbs are extremely explosive. That means a lot of acceleration, and low rotational inertia wheels accelerate with lower energy cost. If the rider is rolling at a steady pace and pedals absolutely smoothly, it doesn’t matter where the weight is on the bike — if it’s a 6.8kg bike with heavy wheels or it’s a 6.8kg bike with light wheels will be irrelevant. But races don’t go like that."

Other articles mentioned that most riders don't have even speed throughout the pedal stroke, especially when climbing or sprinting out of the saddle against strong wind or gravitational resistance.  The wheels are pulse accelerating mid-downstroke and decelerating through the top and bottom of the stroke, whether the deceleration is from wind, gravity, or rolling friction, like plowing through gravel.  The lower the inertia of the wheel, the less effort it takes to accelerate the wheels to recover these losses or accelerate after hitting the brakes before corners or sketchy terrain.  Ironically, the asymmetric chain rings that Wiggins and Froome rode for a while and then abandoned for round would make this issue worse by increasing the speed differential between 12:00 & 6:00 dead spots and 3:00 and 9:00 peak downstroke speed areas.

Thinking about this reminded me of replacing my old carbon Trek 5200 (The original Lance, Tour de EPO bike) that had traditional tube shapes similar to a Columbus tube bike with a 2011 Madone  that had the huge bottom bracket area for larger press fit BB cups--mine never creaked even at my weight (I read that a lot of creaks blamed on BBs were actually from QR drop outs or other components under peak force in sync with max crank pressure).  The huge, wide press fit  BB area added tons of lateral stiffness and pedaling efficiency while the frame and carbon seat mast were more vertically compliant.  Handling improved to match my old Columbus tube criterium bike.  I put the wheels that came with the Madone on my wife's lower spec Madone and got Ksyrium Elites that were far stiffer than the high mileage Bontrager Rolf-licensed Vectors that came with the 5200.  From last ride on the 5200 to first ride on the Madone, I was climbing far faster and easier with much less of my effort lost to frame and wheel flex.  My only complaints about the Madone were that it arrived (a) a month before the Domane was released, which I would have ordered instead and (b) the brake bridge won't clear more than a 25mm tire because the research about 28s being faster was just becoming clear.

When you think about out-of-the-saddle climbing or sprinting on supple gravel tires at say 32 psi, as you stomp on the downstroke, the casing on the rear must flex a little in transmitting rotational force from the rim to the tread.   As gravity slows the bike and your pedal stroke dead spots slow the chain, that flex returns to neutral.  A tire with stiffer, more wooden sidewalls won't flex as much when accelerating and may do a better job of translating hard downstroke pulses into forward speed, and it may hold those larger edge knobs that many mixed terrain gravel tires have at a better angle for cornering bite at low pressures.  I don't see any way to prove or disprove either idea, other than really consistent riders pushing them hard, and most of us don't want to find out the hard way where the grip limit was in a high speed gravel curve.  

At any rate, I hope some gravel tire vendor folks are reading out there and thinking about making something like the PP with a little more casing flex and mud grip.  Thanks again to all who shared insights.

Yes, so many factors.

I've wondered if these (Bontrager GR1) have been such a pleasant surprise because on top of good casing behavior they address the center speed without being slicks, have some spacing towards the sides, and are dual compound. Part might be the wide light wheels. I expected wanting to replace them with popular Panaracer or Hearse tires. Now I look forward to the next quarterly Trek sales where stuff is 20% off or the bro deal one local shop gives based on the hours you log volunteering.

I wanted to think part of my liking these is new high end wheels but friends who put them on commuters and 35 mm version on a tourer have had the same pleasant surprise. They don't seem too different than Schwalbe or Contis but outer knobs are wider spaced than Shwalbes.

My nephew's complaint about these is feeling they didn't last long but I'm used to that with dual compound MTB tires. His only frame of reference is lower level MTB tires and bikes he had as a kid.

 

Familyridz wrote:Thanks to all for lots of insightful comments that led me to look at lots of different tires and research as I think about wheels and tires for a custom gravel tandem.  The last issue to address is this one:

Familyridz wrote:... You obviously don’t get back what is lost to braking ...

... Zinn wrote that one easy way to prove it to yourself is to ride up the same hill twice with a pound of lead bb fishing weights, first in a pocket and then with each one taped to a spike nipple.

... Higher inertia wheels increase peak and total effort, and I would bet have a higher loss to flexing and friction.

The physics and past experience all say to me Zinn is right for where and how I ride and in races, where every minute not drafting has such a big penalty and breaking away or sprinting and not dropping the rider you need to drop can have a huge penalty.

Familyridz wrote:


The physics and past experience all say to me Zinn is right for where and how I ride and in races, where every minute not drafting has such a big penalty and breaking away or sprinting and not dropping the rider you need to drop can have a huge penalty.

stu wrote: Lighter rims and tires (as well as lighter components in general) will make the bike feel more responsive and may allow some riders to produce more power.  Jan Heine mentions a similar effect from frame stiffness where some riders produce more power on a frame with some flex but other riders don't.

I can say this much.

For two of our bikes lighter tires and wheels sure felt better but times for same rides were not radically different. One of those was a 48 mm Oracle Ridge vs 55 mm Fleecer Ridge. Replacing 50 mm known heavy Clement/Donneley MSO with 48 mm Oracle Ridge felt better and single track speed slowed down while smooth travel got faster.

My Moots Route 45 is 7.4 pounds lighter than my Kona. It has 2021 Bontrager Aeolus rims with 25 mm inner width. 40 mm tires vs 48. Same rides average .5 to 1.5 MPH faster than the Sutra and Fargo. Rides are faster than my older but premium road bike. The wheels that perked up everything make more difference on that bike. Road rides are probably faster because I don't slow down for bad spots in pavement.

The original topic Specialized tires are probably a great variation of center slick but they're more the style of some Schwalbe Marathons and Kendas we have on bikes and I've ridden WTBs in that style. I remain "no thanks" when the way the Bontrager GR1 has some center brake/climb traction others don't have, they handle well, and they're a bargain compared to other tires I like.

I admit that my purchases are also influenced by the manufacturers and bike shops that support our trail building and advocacy. There are so many great products these days that I am often very influenced by the good people. I wasn't after those Bontrager GR1 tires that have impressed me because of the tires as much as to support a shop that always leads with parts availability, community contributions, and treating people well. They sell about anything except Specialized among a lot of stuff discussed here.