Rider sues Rene Herse Cycles over alleged tubeless tire ‘blowoff’

28 replies · 2,021 views

mtbnut87
168 posts
#1Apr 8, 2022, 3:38 PM
Interesting. I have heard people complain about this.

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2022/04/07/rider-sues-rene-herse-cycles-over-alleged-tubeless-tire-%E2%80%98blowoff%E2%80%99

Rider sues Rene Herse Cycles over alleged tubeless tire ‘blowoff’

RALEIGH, N.C. (BRAIN) — A North Carolina cyclist is suing Rene Herse Cycles alleging the company was negligent in selling a tubeless road tire that blew off a hookless rim, causing a crash.
A suit filed by cyclist Anthony Justin Little alleges that in March 2019 he was riding at about 23 mph on asphalt when his 38mm Compass Barlow Pass tubeless clincher suffered a “spontaneous blowoff.” The tire was mounted on a hookless rim.
Jan Heine, Rene Herse’s owner, told BRAIN that he only just became aware of the lawsuit and he offered no comment. Compass tires were rebranded as Rene Herse in 2019. The company is based in Seattle.
The suit says the crash caused Little a torn hamstring, bruising, abrasions and permanent scarring, disfigurement and discoloration. It says Little is an experienced cyclist who was “meticulous in ensuring that all components of his bicycle were used in proper manner, within the manufacturer recommended specifications,” including maintaining the recommended tire pressure. It says Little had researched the Compass tire model on the brand’s website and concluded it was an appropriate fit for his rims. He said nothing on the company's website or the tire’s packaging suggested the tire was inappropriate for use with hookless rims. The complaint alleges that the company was aware of other consumer complaints about the tire model blowing off hookless rims.
The suit alleges that after the crash Little sent the tire to Rene Herse for inspection and that the company later told him they had lost the damaged tire despite promises to return it. The suit does not say what rim was used or its dimensions. It also does not say if Little installed the tire himself or if someone else did it.
Little is asking for actual and punitive damages and legal fees. The suit was initially filed in Pitt County, North Carolina, Superior Court, and has now been removed to the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of North Carolina in Raleigh.
Heine is active in tire and rim standards groups including ASTM. The Rene Herse website now contains a detailed discussion of the use of the brand's tires on hookless rims; in short, the site says hookless rims are OK with its tires as long as the rims meet relevant ERTRO/ISO dimension standards for rim sidewall height and rim seat diameter. It's not clear if that information was on the site prior to Little's crash.
"If a component doesn’t match the standards, all bets are off. If the deviation is small, it may work, but there’s no guarantee," the site says.
On March 16, 2019, (coincidentally about a week after Little's crash), Enve released a warning about the use of some lightweight Challenge, Specialized and Vittoria tires with Enve's carbon hookless rims. The Enve announcement did not mention Rene Herse or Compass tires.
1
JWB475
154 posts
#2Apr 8, 2022, 7:51 PM
The only people that are going to win this lawsuit are the lawyers.

I wonder what rim and PSI they were running, and how you prove it was within the recomended range.

I have a set of Hunt Hookless Rims with some 27.5 x 2.2 Umtanum Ridge extralights, but they are usually around 25psi. Hunt has a warning label on the rim with maximum tire pressure based on tire width broken into 4 categories, it varies from 40 psi for 45-56mm wide tires up to 65 psi for 28-33mm tires...
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mtbnut87
168 posts
#3Apr 8, 2022, 9:00 PM
JWB475 wrote:The only people that are going to win this lawsuit are the lawyers.

This is a great point, and very sad, but not why I shared this.... I just remember anecdotally in a few threads on these tires that people had mentioned that they had had them come off the rim when installing them. This was the first time I had heard of one coming off when riding. I had the bead break on a rear tire once. The noise was deafening and the whole experience terrified me and still makes me slow down a bit on descents. I was very fortunate not to be injured (other than the PTSD).
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ljsmith
762 posts
#4Apr 9, 2022, 5:36 AM
The results of the lawsuit will be interesting. If they win you’ll probably see all tire manufacturers say you can’t use hookless rims as a CYA.
1
Volsung
878 posts
#5Apr 9, 2022, 3:41 PM
ljsmith wrote:The results of the lawsuit will be interesting. If they win you’ll probably see all tire manufacturers say you can’t use hookless rims as a CYA.
True, but Rene Herse tires will blow off hooked rims too.
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mtbnut87
168 posts
#6Apr 9, 2022, 3:45 PM
Volsung wrote:
True, but Rene Herse tires will blow off hooked rims too.

This is baffling to me. These tires are made by Panaracer. It seems odd to me that we don't see this issue with their other tires, unless Jan has given them some odd spec for dimensions or materials. I run GravelKings of many flavors and sizes and have never had this issue. I will say that the Barlow Pass tires I had fit very loose on the rim and just about mounted themselves. I had to put two layers of wide rim tape to get them to seal.
1
ljsmith
762 posts
#7Apr 9, 2022, 3:52 PM
mtbnut87 wrote:

This is baffling to me. These tires are made by Panaracer. It seems odd to me that we don't see this issue with their other tires, unless Jan has given them some odd spec for dimensions or materials. I run GravelKings of many flavors and sizes and have never had this issue. I will say that the Barlow Pass tires I had fit very loose on the rim and just about mounted themselves. I had to put two layers of wide rim tape to get them to seal.

Im actually surprised Gravelkings don’t blow off rims. I have a set and they have the loosest beads I have ever seen and require extra layers of tape to get to seal.
0
dangle
465 posts
#8Apr 9, 2022, 4:50 PMedited
mtbnut87 wrote:This is baffling to me. These tires are made by Panaracer. It seems odd to me that we don't see this issue with their other tires, unless Jan has given them some odd spec for dimensions or materials.

It's baffling to me as well, because Panaracer is seemingly legit. But Compass / Rene Hearse are incredibly blow-off prone. Zero chance I will ride them. Just last week I had whatever the 44 mm slicks are in the basement to work on a friend's bike. One wheel wasn't holding air and the rim needed some trying. The beads on that tire were comically loose. You could nearly toss them onto the rim. I put one on a Stans rim that was empty out of curiosity. Those rims are typically tough to mount tires on because they have a slightly larger BSD. The Rene Hearse tire slipped on without any effort. I had a pair of slightly used Bon Jon Pass tires a few years ago and the first one blew right off the rim the first time it was inflated.

I don't know why people continue to to drink the Jan Kool Aid. Yes, the tires feel ultra premium in hand, but there's too high of a chance that they will blow off your rim before you have the opportunity to puncture them. There's so many better options right now that are just as fast or faster.
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clasher
22 posts
#9Apr 9, 2022, 5:27 PM
I've had a few pairs and the sidewalls always crack before they wear out. I dunno if I'll ever buy another pair.
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Volsung
878 posts
#10Apr 10, 2022, 7:36 AM
I've had no problems with the 8 or so panaracer made Soma Supple Vitesses, 4 GK slicks, 2 GK SKs, and 2 GK SSs on the exact same hooked rims that Compass Snoqualmies exploded off of. Jan's probably right and it's the rim specs.

Hopefully this lawsuit brings about some much needed accountability to his bonkers claims.
0
mosinglespeeder
46 posts
#11Apr 11, 2022, 9:12 AMedited
would using a latex or standard tube make it less likely to blow? Interested, I just bought a set but were going to run tubes but like my teeth and don't pleasure eating pave'
0
Angstrom
181 posts
#12Apr 11, 2022, 12:42 PM
As far as I know, as of 2019 there was not a uniform industry standard for road tubeless rims and tires. Anyone running road tubeless was on their own unless their rim and tire combination had been specifically approved by one or both of the manufacturers.
Road hookless in 2019 was even more of an unknown.
The OP states that Mr. Little saw nothing saying he shouldn’t use that rim & tire combination. Based on everything I’ve read about road tubeless in the past few years, I’d rather look for evidence that a particular combination has been tested and approved.
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Angstrom
181 posts
#13Apr 11, 2022, 2:20 PM
mosinglespeeder wrote:would using a latex or standard tube make it less likely to blow? Interested, I just bought a set but were going to run tubes but like my teeth and don't pleasure eating pave'

Beaded or hookless rims?
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mosinglespeeder
46 posts
#14Apr 16, 2022, 7:33 AM
beaded, and actually tubeless certified.....for whatever that is worth, given the conversation about standards and the lack thereof :-}
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zen_
110 posts
#15Apr 16, 2022, 6:11 PM
My issue with hookless rims, and please correct me if my logic is wrong, is that it's only approved with tires that are manufactured to strict tolerances (not too loose). That's actually a great thing because it's ridiculous how much tires can vary in that regard, but the bead still stretches on pretty much any tire over time. I don't understand how that works since some tires seem to stretch quite a bit.
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ljsmith
762 posts
#16Apr 17, 2022, 6:14 AMedited
zen_ wrote:My issue with hookless rims, and please correct me if my logic is wrong, is that it's only approved with tires that are manufactured to strict tolerances (not too loose). That's actually a great thing because it's ridiculous how much tires can vary in that regard, but the bead still stretches on pretty much any tire over time. I don't understand how that works since some tires seem to stretch quite a bit.

Hookless rims are used on cars and never have any bead stretch issues. The main benefit of hookless rims is they make the rim stronger and resistant to impact damage. The other benefit is you get more tire volume. So hookless is a better system. Certain manufacturers, like Schwalbe have never had a problem with tight tolerances and their tires are always good in tubeless systems. Other manufacturers seem to have a lot of problems. My experience with Panaracer is very loose beads, though I’ve never had a blow off. There is a road tubeless standard, but there is nothing that compels manufacturers to actually manufacture to that standard. I suspect the super thin sidewalls of RH tires combined with those loose Panaracer beads result in a very unstable tire. Those thin sidewalks also require you to use more pressure.
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stu
646 posts
#17Apr 17, 2022, 12:28 PM
ljsmith wrote:Hookless rims are used on cars and never have any bead stretch issues.
Typical automobile rim (J or JJ) flanges are 17.3 or 17.5 mm high, compared to bicycle rim flanges 5.5 to 6.5 mm high. Most automobile rims are also smaller in diameter, so an automobile tire would have to stretch (fractionally) maybe 4 times as much to blow off. Also automobile tires have stiff wire beads and run at lower pressures than road bike tires.
1
ljsmith
762 posts
#18Apr 17, 2022, 3:32 PM
stu wrote:Typical automobile rim (J or JJ) flanges are 17.3 or 17.5 mm high, compared to bicycle rim flanges 5.5 to 6.5 mm high. Most automobile rims are also smaller in diameter, so an automobile tire would have to stretch (fractionally) maybe 4 times as much to blow off. Also automobile tires have stiff wire beads and run at lower pressures than road bike tires.

So what exactly is your point? Automobiles weigh several tons and the tires sidewalls are much taller than bicycle sidewalls which puts much, much more stress on the beads. The fact that you think more force is on a road tire bead simply because of higher pressures and larger rim diameters is absurd. PSI is pounds per square inch. An automobile tire has a whole lot more square inches so it has a lot of force trying to push that bead off. Just like pumping up a fat bike tire to 50psi would crack a rim whereas a road tire pumped up to 50psi exerts very little pressure on a rim. So its common sense that the flanges would be taller and the beads thicker and tighter on an automobile rim. My point was simply that there is nothing inherently unsafe with hookless rims. Hookless rims for bicycles are designed to deal with the couple of hundred pounds they must deal with. The fact that RH tires are poorly designed has nothing to do with whether hookless rims are a good design or not.
1
stu
646 posts
#19Apr 17, 2022, 5:42 PMedited
ljsmith wrote:

... My point was simply that there is nothing inherently unsafe with hookless rims ...
I agree with your point. Hookless is fine as long as everything else is OK. AFAIK hooks were added to help when everything else was not necessarily OK.

I'm old enough to remember bikes before hooked rims were common (at least in the USA). A friend had a Schwinn Varsity which, among other issues, had steel rims with flanges which were not only hookless but angled outward, encouraging the tires to blow off. About 60 psi was the limit no matter what the tire sidewall said.
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zen_
110 posts
#20Apr 17, 2022, 8:11 PM
ljsmith wrote:My point was simply that there is nothing inherently unsafe with hookless rims.

https://www.sram.com/en/zipp/campaigns/hookless-tire-compatibility

I don't disagree with you, but the above chart is the kind of why are we doing this? manufacturer garbage I am talking about. Are we really going to make putting a tire on a wheel as complicated as BB standards? REALLY?

Our sport is dying because the cost and complexity to get in keeps going up to the point where it's starting to look equestrian. I'm being a hypocrite to some extent saying that because I would never go back to rim brakes off-road, tubed tires, dated geometries, etc. but where does this end?
0

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