Volsung wrote:Shiggy, that's a complete oversimplification of a multilayered standardized test.
”Standardized” only means the results are repeatable and comparable to previous test runs. If you are compiling irrelevant data it’s garbage. Even Formula 1 teams have trouble converting lab data to actual track performance. Understanding tire performance, even by the tire manufacturers, is even more difficult.
I have never ridden on small diameter metal drums. How a bicycle tire tests on them matters little to my riding. It’s that simple.
While I certainly appreciate that testing tires on a drum is certainly far from perfect, trying to add in the almost endless complexity of including a rider and a bike(what rider weight/which bike/tire pressures, f & rweight distribution/awareness of vibration/just to name a few) opens the proverbial box. There has to be some basic relationship between the testing that is going on and some amount of actual riding. Given the almost infinite number of variables at play, especially with gravel, short of involving NASA, I don't think anyone will be able to offer definitive information. Again, even with a huge effort, there would still be the ginormous but subjective aspect of perceived comfort. In my case, I'm pretty confident that higher tire pressures would yield faster rides but I would not enjoy myself nor be able to tolerate longer rides and that negates the point of why I do this..
That's actually one of the KNOWN differences between drum testing and real-world performance. Higher pressure = faster only applies to smooth surfaces.
"...Rolling resistance drops with each increase in tire pressure until the roughness of the road combined with the damping by the rider’s body will overcome efficiency gains from higher tire stiffness. This will cause the rolling resistance to shoot up. This transition point will vary based on the surface and your combined bike and body weight.
Beyond what the chart says, you can also likely feel the negative effect of putting too much air in your tires as you get rattled around on the gravel. Very few riders would select the highest pressure options shown above for rough courses, for instance.
[QUOTE username=Angstrom userid=6382003 postid=1332898188]That's actually one of the KNOWN differences between drum testing and real-world performance. Higher pressure = faster only applies to smooth surfaces.
Why the need to proffer the simple answer?
That statement as a definitive is NOT (sorry, I hate yelling so I had to) correct; if it were, track riders would be riding at 500 psi. If there was a gain to be had, the tire would be manufactured, certainly for the Olympics. You have no idea what pressure I'm riding at now; all I said was that I believe higher pressure would yield my riding faster; maybe I'm riding at 12 psi in which case there is a real likelihood that would be the case.. Maybe I have experimented with riding at higher pressures with my personal set of variables and found that I do ride faster. However, in addition to lowering RR, it takes away the fun for me. Does that make my conclusion wrong?
Yes, I realize I'm being ridiculous but that is my point about all of this.. I find it interesting that Silca, which is, relatively speaking, a microscopic fish in this game of expensive research, is considered such a resolute source of information. Yea, Josh worked at Zipp but he hasn't for several years and this is a fairly new field of research. Plus, it's not like Zipp really every set the bar for much other than maybe being early to bring reliable carbon wheels to market at a price many would choose to afford. 1 WorldTour team rides their wheels.. They don't seem to be making waves (sinusoidal pun intended) in the gravel realm either.
Again, there are just too many variables at play for any sort of simple answer to have even the slightest degree of universal applicability or, equally importantly, lack of applicability.
"Again, there are just too many variables at play for any sort of simple answer to have even the slightest degree of universal applicability or, equally importantly, incorrectness."
I'd think something like "if you're running your gravel bike tires at typical road-bike pressures, and the ride is uncomfortably rough, lowering the pressures may help" would be fairly universal. :-)
You can find exceptions to a generalization and still have it be helpful. As one economist said: "All models are wrong, but some are useful."
The thing drum tests test is it eliminates other variables. It compares tires to each other on a level playing field. That's why it's standardized. In the real world there are differences in terrain, moisture, lines you can ride, all that jive we don't need to worry about an indoor drum at a set temperature.
Drum calc's rr measuring deceleration of said drum. I'd suggest that method just delivering 'data noise' on rubber of width being run soft and loose surfaces. If one is focused on rd rr numbers for off rd tires.. then ride one's rd bike.😉
What I'd be much more interested in tire data... WEAR. Online costs of this 'new' latest greatest in far otta hand.
WinterRider wrote:Drum calc's rr measuring deceleration of said drum. I'd suggest that method just delivering 'data noise' on rubber of width being run soft and loose surfaces. If one is focused on rd rr numbers for off rd tires.. then ride one's rd bike.😉
What I'd be much more interested in tire data... WEAR. Online costs of this 'new' latest greatest in far otta hand.
And just how would you propose measuring wear in such a way that it would not just reflect wear on a drum? Just to name a few factors you would have to account for: rider weight/bike/riding surface/tire pressure/riding style/ride speed/climbing/descending/flat/cornering style/braking style/front wear versus rear wear....
Or, on a drum, in repeatable conditions, you test and you can reasonably say tire A will last some % longer than tire B. How much longer in actual use; who knows because in real use all the variables come back.. If you think testing will reveal a light/supple/durable/cheap tire you are dreaming my friend. Life is a value proposition; buy the tires that align with yours..
Thought I'd leave that to the 'drum guys'... w/o meaning to sound smart a**.
What I came into the thread for was looking for rider observations. I'll send 2.
The p racer gravel daug is just that... back when exploring non tubes I tried that junk t 'compatible'... that marketing scheme actually dangerous. That rubber in no way suitable non tubes. Possibly that corp reconfigured that condom of a tire.. I care less. All that lightwt junk is same.. fine bluebird times. Cut one.. in no where land. Then what...? A mess... IF you have tube along. Boot it? Doubt that happens. Then those condom units are problematic to reseat a little stretched.
This... you noobs coming into non tubes.. is the reality. Non tubes are just a new product line unload your pockets. PITA.. mostly.
Vitt 33mm dry's. Slow.. really a payment tire for cutting done a new easily trails. I bought on poor advice...LOL. just expensive junk.
So.. just a 'tired guy who's road lots last decade plus. Do say what I think .. my opine sans a commercial bent.. which basically now is this 'net' platter is. 21st century... more noise.. less fact/s... honesty.
So.. SWGraveler.. are you in the industry as they say? No commercial angle your opines?
So.. SWGraveler.. are you in the industry as they say? No commercial angle your opines?
Interesting that you ask as I have not been advocating nor demeaning of any brand in this thread... I was in the industry at the LBS level, for about 12 years.. Pretty much focused on fitting as I have a lot of passion for that. I have been fully retired for about 4 years. .
I too am searching for the "ideal" tire for myself and I have tried 7 or 8 different models over about 4 years of gravel riding. I have a pair of SWorks Pathfinders on order. I think the short answer is that there may not be an ideal tire as the conditions of the roads I ride vary and I assume that is pretty much the case everywhere. I vary too; some days I have it, some days not so much. I think that BRR and their testing is probably as good as it is going to get; clearly one will always be able to question their methods but given the number of variables at play I think it is a good yardstick. If they were to develop and test with a standardized rider/bike/total weight/pressure/gravel, all indoors to keep the conditions consistent, people who are heavier/lighter/different bike/ride outdoors or whatever would whine their results are not relevant/applicable to them. Either harvest what you can from BRR or buy blindly; either way you are hoping to some degree and hoping is not a methodology as they say..
SWGraveler.. I look forward to your evaluation of that purchase.
We agreed on most everything really... I'm always 'mining' for opines w experience like yourself.
My main issue now.. really is tire fit per rims. Done.. non tubes... (aka tube-a** in my view), hence finding a set that'll take tubes w/o the hassle challenging now days.
Understand all... I have well above.. stubbornness. Top 1%.. kept w the non sealant side lots of miles.. road. But 3 'high and dry' strikes... that chit is just that.
Tire looks promising... TReady versus traditional T... likely I could 'tube' w 50mm. My rural dirt/sand/gravel rds give that soft spot/stretch... thinking more width w more float should give less surprises.
FQA... straight forward. Decent tec.
700x50C (50-622), Weight: 660g, Max Pressure: 50 PSI... one reviewer noted 47mm range.. think it was on 19-21 internal.
TwoWheeler wrote:Ok, before asking the question about what tires you recommend, I read through all the threads first. That only left me more confused than when I started. Even given models of tires seem to have variations between model years and such.
For starters, I have no “real gravel” per se. Every ride starts and ends on asphalt. In between, I ride a mix of good asphalt, not-so-good asphalt, chip seal, stone dust bike paths, hard packed dirt, sand and grass snowmobile trail. The ratio of each depends on my mood that day. (For “pure” road rides, I take my road bike). I don’t race, don’t bikepack - although I occasionally commute and carry a bunch of crap. Even on the asphalt, it’s nice not to fear the Edge Monsters in places where there are no shoulders.
I am currently riding 42mm Gravelking slicks on my 650b wheelset and am looking for tires for my 700c wheelset. The GK’s have been ok for most of my riding, only getting a bit squidgy in soft sand. They were, however a major PITA to mount (on two different rims).
My wife has a Diverge, with 38mm Sawtooth tires that seem OK - don’t know I don’t ride her bike. I DO know they were a breeze to set up tubeless. They seem a bit narrower than I’d like to go, though.
I’m looking for tires that are easy to mount, puncture resistant, long wearing, offer reasonable grip, smooth riding and not horribly slow. Oh yeah, I don’t want to have to take out a mortgage, either. In short, I want it all. 😉
1. I find Gravel Kings to be easy to mount and setup on almost every rim I have (had one blow off a rim with a low G height-inner sidewall-at 20psi while mounting. The same tire is still in use on another brand rim).
2. All tires are “squidgy” on soft sand. Wider, and a bit of edge tread can help, as does lower pressures. But the pressure I use for loose/ sandy conditions is horrible on pavement.
1. I find Gravel Kings to be easy to mount and setup on almost every rim I have (had one blow off a rim with a low G height-inner sidewall-at 20psi while mounting. The same tire is still in use on another brand rim).
The bike came with tubed Gravelking slicks on Mavic 419 rims.
I don’t remember having any issues re-mounting them when I went tubeless, but they’d been ridden tubed for a while and so were a bit stretched. When the OEM GKs were done, I was happy enough to replace them with another set. Those, I had an absolute SOB of a time getting on. I wrote it off to the rims being fairly old school tech. Later on, I built a set of wheels using Light Bicycle carbon rims and put GK slicks. Again, I had a helluva time getting them on. I even went so far as to put pinch clothespin-type clamps in a couple of places, to keep the tire pinched inward so it could drop into the center channel. It was still a struggle.
I set my wife’s Diverge up tubeless and had NO issue with the Specialized Sawtooth tires and OEM rims.
I just mounted Byways on Spinergy GX rims and had zero problems.
Dunno.
shiggy wrote:2. All tires are “squidgy” on soft sand. Wider, and a bit of edge tread can help, as does lower pressures. But the pressure I use for loose/ sandy conditions is horrible on pavement.
Yeah, that’s kind of where I was going with that. The one instance I was referring to was sand-over-hardpack and was only one section of trail. In that one instance, some sort of knobs on the edges would have helped.
1. I find Gravel Kings to be easy to mount and setup on almost every rim I have (had one blow off a rim with a low G height-inner sidewall-at 20psi while mounting. The same tire is still in use on another brand rim).
2. All tires are “squidgy” on soft sand. Wider, and a bit of edge tread can help, as does lower pressures. But the pressure I use for loose/ sandy conditions is horrible on pavement.
For pals in a regular riding posse recently got 3 SS+ and 1 SS and the SS+ were all a slight bother on rims that were easy tubeless with others and seemed to take a little long to stop leaking a bit at sidewalls. The + casing seems to add mounting challenge and extremely mediocre feel for tires that also seem a bit prone to puncture for their type. If that's a criticism, I'll point out they don't cost as much as a lot of popular tires and are versatile.
On the drum testing, I take that as a way to judge tires against each other but not a main reason to buy. I tend to like tires considered specialists or good generalists.
SWGraveler wrote:To add to the it's hard to keep up vein, I had no awareness of the Tufo tires and they look pretty interesting!
After reading lots of reviews I pulled the plug and bought the Tufo Gravel Thundero in 700 x 40. I bought a pair of them from Bike Inn with tan sidewalls for $80 and that was with shipping. Heck of a deal IMHO. I can't wait until my Donnley xplor MSO'S wear out so I can give them a try. The tread on them look very similar to my Donnley's.
This is the tires I have tried so far. Clement now Donnley can stock on my Tamland. Set on bike wasn't tubeless ready 2nd tire was the Kendra Flintridge Pro in 700 x 40. Put them on the Tamland for the Pony Express 75 miler in Kansas because of hearing about the sharp flint out there. Tires are bullet proof but heavy 3rd tire was the WTB Riddler Fast Rolling Light in 700 x 37. Decent tire but wore out too fast for me. I weigh in at around 200 lbs. give or take. 4th tire was the Maxis Ramble in 700 x 45. I put them on a 2nd wheel set my stock rims that I got on my Raleigh Roker. Bought them pretty much for sandy rides or rough stuff. I haven't really ridden them enough to get a real test on them. I will say that I like the wider tire for the smoother ride it gives me though.
So far the Donnley xplor MSO has been my ideal tire but everybody likes their tire that works for them. Really hoping the Tufo becomes my go to tire. From what I read they had been in the roadie tire biz. for quite sometime and just got into the gravel tire mfg. in the last 2 years.
this thread kind of went all over the place, but I keep waiting for someone to talk about the American Classic tires. They look like a decent tire and won't break the bank. I want some, but don't want to be the first one to try them. 😊
TwoWheeler wrote:Ok, before asking the question about what tires you recommend, I read through all the threads first. That only left me more confused than when I started. Even given models of tires seem to have variations between model years and such.
For starters, I have no “real gravel” per se. Every ride starts and ends on asphalt. In between, I ride a mix of good asphalt, not-so-good asphalt, chip seal, stone dust bike paths, hard packed dirt, sand and grass snowmobile trail. The ratio of each depends on my mood that day. (For “pure” road rides, I take my road bike). I don’t race, don’t bikepack - although I occasionally commute and carry a bunch of crap. Even on the asphalt, it’s nice not to fear the Edge Monsters in places where there are no shoulders.
I am currently riding 42mm Gravelking slicks on my 650b wheelset and am looking for tires for my 700c wheelset. The GK’s have been ok for most of my riding, only getting a bit squidgy in soft sand. They were, however a major PITA to mount (on two different rims).
My wife has a Diverge, with 38mm Sawtooth tires that seem OK - don’t know I don’t ride her bike. I DO know they were a breeze to set up tubeless. They seem a bit narrower than I’d like to go, though.
I’m looking for tires that are easy to mount, puncture resistant, long wearing, offer reasonable grip, smooth riding and not horribly slow. Oh yeah, I don’t want to have to take out a mortgage, either. In short, I want it all. 😉
"...I keep waiting for someone to talk about the American Classic tires. They look like a decent tire and won't break the bank. I want some, but don't want to be the first one to try them."
Bikepacking.com has reviewed them as well. The general consensus seems that they're fine, very affordable, narrow compared to claimed widths, and heavy.
