Why not just ride touring bikes?

cmcalpin wrote:
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So there ya go, Touring, fat, full suspension, rigid hardtail MYB, just about anything can successfully ride gravel if a person doesn't let themselves get trapped mentally by the popular majority.
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Yes, I'll agree that most any type of bike "CAN" be ridden in gravel...

-BUT-

Depending upon conditions some bikes and wheel/tire combinations will be MUCH more efficient, comfortable and handle better.

On this year's Bite The Bullet Gran Fondo I found myself wishing for some fast 32c road tires instead of the 38c gravel tires I was using as the roads were well packed and fast.

Last weekend's Black Friday gravel ride saw a couple guys on 25mm road tires. The first flat of the day was one of these guys and the other bailed for pavement after about 10 miles. We haven't had precipitation in many weeks so the roads are soft and the gravel is deep. Road tires have supple light sidewalls which cut easily and narrow tires knife into soft roads.  

Yeah, I've been on long rides with strong riders on mountain bikes and I have a few 26" vintage mountain bikes repurposed for gravel with drop bars.  Lots of fun to ride but the 2.25" tires are slower than the 700x38 tires on my Ti CX bike. 

I don't use flat bars for gravel because I like the many positions possible with drop bars.  We get A LOT of strong winds in Colorado and the upright position of flat bars makes for a better workout. :-) 

Moving from 38mm to 25mm tires makes the Ti CX bike lighter and faster but it's still noticeably slower than my carbon Tarmac which I'll take out for fast group rides with my racer buddies.

There are some incredibly strong and fast racers who could ride a full suspension mtb and crush me on any bike of my choosing.  Having the right bike for the ride and conditions will help, but it won't work miracles.

Oh, and my Soma Saga steel touring bike is great in gravel.  Currently it's setup with fenders and Schwalbe Marathon Mondial DD 40c tires.  Without the fenders I could probably go a bit wider but IMO the 40's ride and handle great.  So yes touring bikes are great options for gravel.

NoCoGreg wrote:
Yes, I'll agree that most any type of bike "CAN" be ridden in gravel...

-BUT-

Depending upon conditions some bikes and wheel/tire combinations will be MUCH more efficient, comfortable and handle better.

On this year's Bite The Bullet Gran Fondo I found myself wishing for some fast 32c road tires instead of the 38c gravel tires I was using as the roads were well packed and fast.

Last weekend's Black Friday gravel ride saw a couple guys on 25mm road tires. The first flat of the day was one of these guys and the other bailed for pavement after about 10 miles. We haven't had precipitation in many weeks so the roads are soft and the gravel is deep. Road tires have supple light sidewalls which cut easily and narrow tires knife into soft roads.  

Yeah, I've been on long rides with strong riders on mountain bikes and I have a few 26" vintage mountain bikes repurposed for gravel with drop bars.  Lots of fun to ride but the 2.25" tires are slower than the 700x38 tires on my Ti CX bike. 

I don't use flat bars for gravel because I like the many positions possible with drop bars.  We get A LOT of strong winds in Colorado and the upright position of flat bars makes for a better workout. :-) 

Moving from 38mm to 25mm tires makes the Ti CX bike lighter and faster but it's still noticeably slower than my carbon Tarmac which I'll take out for fast group rides with my racer buddies.

There are some incredibly strong and fast racers who could ride a full suspension mtb and crush me on any bike of my choosing.  Having the right bike for the ride and conditions will help, but it won't work miracles.

Oh, and my Soma Saga steel touring bike is great in gravel.  Currently it's setup with fenders and Schwalbe Marathon Mondial DD 40c tires.  Without the fenders I could probably go a bit wider but IMO the 40's ride and handle great.  So yes touring bikes are great options for gravel.

\n \nHow u like your saga? I got a wolverine. Pretty smooth and stable bike. \n \nI get what your saying about tires but why are we being told by some sources now that big tires have less rolling resistance than skinny tires? That’s a popular theory going around and I am not going to disputed it either way but I am curious.

cmcalpin wrote: How u like your saga? I got a wolverine. Pretty smooth and stable bike. I get what your saying about tires but why are we being told by some sources now that big tires have less rolling resistance than skinny tires? That’s a popular theory going around and I am not going to disputed it either way but I am curious.

The Saga is an excellent riding bike but it's setup for touring/commuting (rack, fenders, lights, heavy duty tires).  My commute, before I retired, included about 5 miles of gravel and the Saga was perfect.  On nice weather days and if I didn't have a hard deadline I'd take the "scenic route" home and add 5 or 10 miles of gravel.  I just love riding out in farm land...

Excellent question on rolling resistance.  Yes, now that people are actually testing rolling resistance, aerodynamics and are building computer models of both they are finding that wider tires roll faster.  Note that this is assuming the tire construction and tread are the same so a heavy duty touring tire will not roll as fast as a similar width performance tire with light weight supple casing.  There are a couple factors most commonly noted:
1. Wider tires have a shorter footprint. This has to do with how the tire flattens where it contacts the road.  A longer footprint will have more resistance.
2. Wider tires at lower pressure will roll over stuff (rocks, gravel, bumps) more efficiently. A narrower tire with higher pressure will bounce more and in doing so is less efficient.
3. The randonneur (long distance rider) community has a lot of focus on how vibration will fatigue the rider.  Larger volume tires will absorb more vibration so this will help preserve the rider's energy over long distances.  Here in Colorado the highway department uses "Chip and Seal" to resurface roads.  This is essentially gravel and tar and makes for a very coarse surface that, in a word, sucks.  Larger volume tires are much much more comfortable.  The folks at Bicycle Quarterly (CompassCycles.com) have a number of articles explaining the advantages of wide(r) tires.

The downside is wider tires are heavier and as I previously alluded to, a smooth supple 32mm road tire is going to roll much easier than a knobby 38mm tire.  I was on Clement 120 thread tires which are supposed to be one of the faster  gravel tires, but I was on dirt roads almost as smooth as pavement so I was suffering trying to keep up with riders on road tires.  Tire selection has a big impact on performance. That said, if I'm out for a fun ride then I'll be on a 26'er mountain bike with drop bars.

NoCoGreg wrote:

The Saga is an excellent riding bike but it's setup for touring/commuting (rack, fenders, lights, heavy duty tires).  My commute, before I retired, included about 5 miles of gravel and the Saga was perfect.  On nice weather days and if I didn't have a hard deadline I'd take the "scenic route" home and add 5 or 10 miles of gravel.  I just love riding out in farm land...

Excellent question on rolling resistance.  Yes, now that people are actually testing rolling resistance, aerodynamics and are building computer models of both they are finding that wider tires roll faster.  Note that this is assuming the tire construction and tread are the same so a heavy duty touring tire will not roll as fast as a similar width performance tire with light weight supple casing.  There are a couple factors most commonly noted:
1. Wider tires have a shorter footprint. This has to do with how the tire flattens where it contacts the road.  A longer footprint will have more resistance.
2. Wider tires at lower pressure will roll over stuff (rocks, gravel, bumps) more efficiently. A narrower tire with higher pressure will bounce more and in doing so is less efficient.
3. The randonneur (long distance rider) community has a lot of focus on how vibration will fatigue the rider.  Larger volume tires will absorb more vibration so this will help preserve the rider's energy over long distances.  Here in Colorado the highway department uses "Chip and Seal" to resurface roads.  This is essentially gravel and tar and makes for a very coarse surface that, in a word, sucks.  Larger volume tires are much much more comfortable.  The folks at Bicycle Quarterly (CompassCycles.com) have a number of articles explaining the advantages of wide(r) tires.

The downside is wider tires are heavier and as I previously alluded to, a smooth supple 32mm road tire is going to roll much easier than a knobby 38mm tire.  I was on Clement 120 thread tires which are supposed to be one of the faster  gravel tires, but I was on dirt roads almost as smooth as pavement so I was suffering trying to keep up with riders on road tires.  Tire selection has a big impact on performance. That said, if I'm out for a fun ride then I'll be on a 26'er mountain bike with drop bars.

\n \nSo are you saying, in essence, that if a person is a recreational gravel rider, big fat mtb tires are they way to go assuming the tread pattern is low rolling? Yet if that same person decides to race competitively they are better getting on some 32s-40s?

cmcalpin wrote: So are you saying, in essence, that if a person is a recreational gravel rider, big fat mtb tires are they way to go assuming the tread pattern is low rolling? Yet if that same person decides to race competitively they are better getting on some 32s-40s?

You also have to factor in the type of terrain you are riding.  If you are riding smooth gravel, like many crushed limestone rail trails, then even fast rolling mountain bike tires are overkill.  If the gravel is bigger and the trail/road rougher then you definitely want the bigger volume.  Because "gravel" riding varies so much across the country (or even the world), your preferred tire may vary a lot from someone else's.  This is why you are seeing so many dual wheelsize gravel bikes coming out.  So you can have a fast 700c gravel wheelset/tire and a higher volume 650b wheelset/tire on the same bike.  

cmcalpin wrote: So are you saying, in essence, that if a person is a recreational gravel rider, big fat mtb tires are they way to go assuming the tread pattern is low rolling? Yet if that same person decides to race competitively they are better getting on some 32s-40s?

Well, when I am competitively riding, acceleration (sprinting/climbing) is key and weight makes a big difference (as does aero when riding hard over 20mph).  So light wheels/tires (less rotating mass) is huge.

But if you are not racing anyone, you may have more fun on wider tires.  Especially if you are in the 15mph (or less) speed range.  

I have studied this for 10+ years.  I was super skeptical at first, but slowly had to agree with the data (from Germany and from bicycle quarterly).  

I did get some 60mm tires that have less rolling resistance than my 25mm race tires.  It was a bizzare feeling, as I was used to slower rolling mountain bike tires.  But at 15mph, these tires on a $300 bike take about the same effort at 15mph as my fast race bikes.   Now, I wouldn't want to ride those tires (or bike) doing hard sprints at 20-25mph, but for touring and non competitive riding, they have a lot going for them.

If you really want to see more, check out this web site.  or google bicycle quarterly rolling resistance.  https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/

ljsmith wrote:

You also have to factor in the type of terrain you are riding.  If you are riding smooth gravel, like many crushed limestone rail trails, then even fast rolling mountain bike tires are overkill.  If the gravel is bigger and the trail/road rougher then you definitely want the bigger volume.  Because "gravel" riding varies so much across the country (or even the world), your preferred tire may vary a lot from someone else's.  This is why you are seeing so many dual wheelsize gravel bikes coming out.  So you can have a fast 700c gravel wheelset/tire and a higher volume 650b wheelset/tire on the same bike.  

\n \nThe problem with my area is if you do a long enough ride the gravel changes constantly. You may have a few miles of thick large rock that tends to steer your bike for you and beat you up on regular gravel tires but then past that section it’s hard pack for miles. Too bad you can’t switch tires on the fly lol!!

cmcalpin wrote: The problem with my area is if you do a long enough ride the gravel changes constantly. You may have a few miles of thick large rock that tends to steer your bike for you and beat you up on regular gravel tires but then past that section it’s hard pack for miles. Too bad you can’t switch tires on the fly lol!!

Yup, you just hit the nail on the head...  As you pointed out, conditions change based on location (some sections of road are always better/worse), but conditions change with weather.  Road crews come through and regrade many of the gravel roads. After being scraped and rolled the roads generally are much smoother and faster. With rain, the dirt will pack around the gravel so the roads will be firm and fast. Over several weeks without precipitation the traffic will loosen the dirt and the gravel will be deep and slow.  High winds have been known to leave drifts of soft dirt (sand?) which were virtually impossible to ride so everyone pushed their bikes through this section. I'm sure a fat bike would've just rolled along but alas everyone was on "skinny" tires of 2" or less.  

NoCoGreg wrote:
Yup, you just hit the nail on the head...  As you pointed out, conditions change based on location (some sections of road are always better/worse), but conditions change with weather.  Road crews come through and regrade many of the gravel roads. After being scraped and rolled the roads generally are much smoother and faster. With rain, the dirt will pack around the gravel so the roads will be firm and fast. Over several weeks without precipitation the traffic will loosen the dirt and the gravel will be deep and slow.  High winds have been known to leave drifts of soft dirt (sand?) which were virtually impossible to ride so everyone pushed their bikes through this section. I'm sure a fat bike would've just rolled along but alas everyone was on "skinny" tires of 2" or less.  

\n \n Yeah what I was referring to around here a lot of times in the spring the DOT goes along and puts a whole bunch of fresh gravel down to replace all the stuff that’s been pushed down or kicked away by tires. And when they do that man they put down a thick layer LOL. It’s dangerous to drive very fast on it with a car let alone a two wheeled vehicle.

chas wrote:
If you really want to see more, check out this web site.  or google bicycle quarterly rolling resistance.  https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/

Another shameless plug for bicyclerollingresistance.com :-)  Great reviews and thanks for sharing this Chas!

I would love to see tests for gravel tires, but to be truly meaningful (IMO anyway) it would need to be able to account for loose gravel.  The float of wider and larger diameter tires makes a huge difference when the gravel gets soft.  It also provides much more confidence and sense of stability.  Because conditions can change so quickly sometimes it is impossible to slow in preparation of deep gravel...  Or to put it another way, there have been times when the road conditions changed from firm with a little gravel to very deep and loose gravel.  This isn't so bad when going at a moderate speed, but can be unnerving when blasting downhill with 30++ mph tailwind (did I mention it can get windy in Colorado?). 

NoCoGreg wrote:Or to put it another way, there have been times when the road conditions changed from firm with a little gravel to very deep and loose gravel. This isn't so bad when going at a moderate speed, but can be unnerving when blasting downhill

\n \nThat’s why you will seldom catch me blasting down a gravel hill full speed unless I can see the road conditions far enough ahead. 😀

cmcalpin wrote: The problem with my area is if you do a long enough ride the gravel changes constantly. You may have a few miles of thick large rock that tends to steer your bike for you and beat you up on regular gravel tires but then past that section it’s hard pack for miles. Too bad you can’t switch tires on the fly lol!!

Why my wife likes both the larger MTB tires and whatever part of the Fargo is a touring bike or MTB.

It looks like gravel riding is as splintered or broad as other segments. I'm in the middle of associates where for some gravel is a long distance day or days tour and for others it's hard and fast 'til it hurts and who's done first. It's wonderful to have so many product choices.

imwjl wrote:
It looks like gravel riding is as splintered or broad as other segments. I'm in the middle of associates where for some gravel is a long distance day or days tour and for others it's hard and fast 'til it hurts and who's done first. It's wonderful to have so many product choices.

Yes exactly...  It's the same tradeoff as other branches of cycling:

Comfort, reliability/endurance, and functionality versus speed and agility.

No bike has it all and there's a price component to the equation.   It's a challenge if one has diverse groups of friends where some are into the long distance rides and others are racers.  I consider this a first world problem and consider myself to be truly blessed to have such challenges. :-)

Enjoy,
Greg